Steve

Wouldn't your scenario be more a form of using or proofing or more advance training using the Prey/Defense/Fight drive, rather then the begining stages of bring out and building confidence in his bite work, while in defense. The off field training is of tremendous value once you get to that level were he can use the things he has learned or developed in training.

I reflect back to Ed's Protection training video where this bite proven Rottie is tested in the muzzle before he was ready. Ran at the decoy but once he got close he didn't know what to do, the decoy could get a rise out of him if he crack the whip or made prey gestures, the dog always advance but he didn't know what to do. The moral here is don't go too fast and if in training you do start back over to bring him back up to the desired level.

Micheal Taylor
But how do you explain some of the French Ring and KNPV dogs? While fight drive can be directed at equipment, some of these dogs just have such a strong desire to get the prey. But they are not really in fight drive, they are holding on for the ride. They are condtioned in prey to withstand the stress, and built up in prey.

My reply
I don't from my view it looked like they were in fight drive their antics are so intent. But going by Ring experts on this board its all done in prey drive, like you mentioned. Hell I don't know how they do it, it seemed that it would be easier to just swicht to fight/combat drive if the intensity of battle was that tough.

But you are right their prey drive is off the chart I know a dog in defense would not jump throw a fire rings or water to get a antagonist unless he swichted to fight drive.

Mike I'd like to address a question to you, Which do you thing is the stronger dog in a real situation? The Prey mad dog of the French Ring or the dog that has a developed Fight drive through training.

Which could you really trust when you really needed its protection to even the odds? Heres a scenario, You are standing on one and his buddy is approaching lets say 10-15 feet away (your dog on standing alert, giving the dog a chance, if his buddy is too close the dog can only have a after the fact affect) fast from your blind side!!!
Which dog would you want right then and there?

Micheal wrote - I have worked a number of french Ring dogs and more KNPV trained dogs, that would not bite a person without equipment, and even then lots of them were locked in prey, with no real fighting instict displayed even on the equipment.



My Reply - Why is it that they don't strive for the fight drive or aggression toward the man? Is it a saftey factor that they don't want the dogs to be aggressive toward the man or is it that they can turn out a higher number of trained dogs using this method?

What about the frontal assault these dogs hit the decoy like they are linebackers, doesn't this take some fight drive? Or is it they just see the sleeve/prey. I guess this would provide a comfort zone that the dog can work in and not feel much stress.

What about the protection routine of bag/purse or child/person? What kind of prey activity is that it has to be some defense/fight drive??? Sometimes the dog just drive off the aggressor, and a bite is not given. If this is done in prey, I wonder what magic you/they are using!!

The Fench Ring trainers from my understanding are very heavy into training methods, and have mastered how to teach thier dogs specific exersises. It is a fact that they can mask weak dogs; thru training these dogs will appear to be solid animals.

Again it is a stero-type, I am sure that there are some real Ring dogs out there, that would put a hurting on you. I feel that one of the reasons that they use prey is that the Ring Sport was made or used for Malinois. Alot of Malinois get overloaded when worked in fight or agression; I have noticed this with alot of the French Malinois. Thier nerves get turned on easliy and with alot of dogs this becomes a problem. When they over-load they will come back on the handler, for one thing. Plus with the type of agitation that they do, if the dogs were to get really stressed, they would have a hard time outing the dog as cleanly as they do; control would be a bigger problem, if you have a dog that was taking the type of stick hits that they do and he was in fight drive or even had a low threshold for defense. They take the lower thershold dogs and try and raise that threshold thru condtioning the dog thru stress - in other words they teach the dog to cope with whatever comes at it like it is no big deal, rather then see it as a real threat.It is a sport so points matter. Again though these things are rather general.

i think getting a pup in a harness and and tying him off is very critical early on just you the dog prey item no helper you as the owner trainer can condition the dog to all the movements that the future agitator will throw at him will help to keep this adrenaline down and keep him in a solid frame of mind to bite deep and calm frtom a distance run at him pop the whip and throw him a treat let him bite a tug and simulate a stick hitjust you and the pup and a tie out a good little bungee cord and a ton of praise and back in his kennel let him reload and get to the point where he will bark, out, take a stick hit, all tied out, before he ever sees a agitator for real.

Steve,
I in my oppinion socialization, and imprinting travels over to the bite work. with your method of (put them in a kennel and do nothing with them for 8 weeks) I would expect the dog to be fruity. Alot of noise sensitivy problems, problems with surfaces, and etc can be avoided by imprinting.

Running at a dog at a fast speed and poping the whip doesn't alway trigger deffense.

So Mike SchH dogs that are worked and fight drive developed would produce a more reliable dog?
Then the Prey driven French Ring or KVNP dogs?
I know now that most dogs ion SchH or Prey driven also, but they do want to see fight drive in their routines. Where as the Ring sports don't seem to care.

Steve I think trying to get Puppy to go in defense is not a good thing, I do agree you can socialize the pup with whip and bite tcehniques as long as it done in prey and it not any serious stuff being done.


Andre?
Steve wrote - ton of praise and back in his kennel let him reload and get to the point where he will bark, out, take a stick hit, all tied out, before he ever sees a agitator for real.

What might make the puppy fruity? Its just quitting on a high note and building up frustration this could bring stronger and better results the next time.

What could be the down side of this?
I could see stick hits could hurt a puppy, you have to careful there.

Originally posted by Don B. Ackerson:
So Mike SchH dogs that are worked and fight drive developed would produce a more reliable dog?
Then the Prey driven French Ring or KVNP dogs?
I know now that most dogs ion SchH or Prey driven also, but they do want to see fight drive in their routines. Where as the Ring sports don't seem to care.
. Sure a dog that works in fight drive will be more reliable, no question. But as far as one sport producing a better dog for real work, this is questionable, and one that most would be hesitant to answer if they are not bias. I love Schutzhund, but there are just as many prey dogs in Schutzhund or IPO, that are at the top as there are in the Ring or KNPV. These are sports, and great ones for evalulating dogs, but you still must pick a dog on its own merits, not just because of a title. The title is just a snap-shot in a lot of cases of the dog. It is a very helpfull tool, as is the sport training, as the methods that are used in most of these sports are sound (in general) in developing a dogs protection work to a degree, compared to some of the methods I have seen used in say some of the PP sports that have been born in the States.

Mike wrote - compared to some of the methods I have seen used in say some of the PP sports that have been born in the States.

Mike is it the quailty of dogs or is the training that makes the SchH, IPO, or Ring sport dogs better candiates for real work then the U.S. born protection organizations?

In my mind they the Protection groups seem to be training for the real world. They encourage fight drive and train scenarios that are more likely to happen. The want maybe a bit more sharper dog than then sports. And that the dog cue off their commands, only.