Re: training progress
[Re: Vince P. ]
#40290 - 10/11/2001 10:56 AM |
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Renee:
Unfortunately prey is a diminishing drive when inactive. A puppy could have tons of prey but if left dormant then it will diminish. That is why I start the day I get him and keep it up threw the life of the dog. From 8-12 weeks old the only training I do is prey building. I have been busy the last two days and I have not been able to work on Kai’s prey and this morning it dropped a good 20 percent. Watch Bernard when he works prey. His body is as still as possible while the item jumps to life. Most people put as much life in them as the object. This takes the focus off the item and on to the person. It takes practice. I would work prey off the field EVERY day. Short consistent sessions are better then long inconsistent sessions. Work the ball. Make it come to life. The trick is to have him so close that his lips just touch it as he closes his jaws but he never gets it. Trust me when he finally does he will not want to give it up. Your thinking that this will make him ball crazy but how will it help the escape. Trust me this will transfer to the sleeve. I know you are no beginner and I do not mean to speak to you as one. But I know from experience that we all like to work what our dog does best. If he sucks at tracking but is great in obedience what do we do? Work less on tracking and more on obedience. This makes him worse at tracking and even sharper at obedience. Your pup has little interest for prey but does great when confronted. So almost all your effort should be prey building. His defense will come naturally when the time comes. I’m rooting for you!
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Re: training progress
[Re: Vince P. ]
#40291 - 10/11/2001 11:52 AM |
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Renee,
Vince's post on developing the prey dive is important for another reason. It is just as easy to get a dog locked in "defense" as it is to get the dog locked in "prey". If you don't get the dog doing some prey work early, you may have the situation I have with a dog that only works in defense. as a result of that, he will not do a send out and if he can drive off the agitator he sees that as a victory and he actually prefers to win with out the bite. As a result of that he have had to increase the pressure to very high levels to get him to bite. It is a step up from where we were with him a year ago, but not a good place, especially if the goal is to participate in protection sports.
My dog will never be able to work in a trial. The only reason I keep training him is to maintain his out and move him along as far as I can. It is also teaching me a lot about problem solving with this type of problem. He likes doing the bite work and gets to be a pain around the house if we don't go work at something for a week. But I have no illusions as to what his level of work will be. If we are actually assalted he will bite with out any hesitation, but if it is not a physical confrontation I am fairly sure he wouldn't bite.
If you can't be a Good Example,then You'll just have to Serve as a Horrible Warning. Catherine Aird. |
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Re: training progress
[Re: Vince P. ]
#40292 - 10/11/2001 12:03 PM |
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Vince, Richard, thank you.
Vince, I know what you mean about stress, that's why I said that she *seems* not to be stressed. As a matter of fact, she seems to be as happy as a lark. After getting one or two line bites in prey, she stops paying attention to prey movements, cocks her head and gives a short angry bark, as if urging the helper to show her some offense. As soon as he does, she's back at the game. At least I won't have to worry about her getting locked in prey, aye? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Richard, I was hoping to hear from you… What you are saying makes sense. We used frustration before to make her bite in prey, but she just got bored. Using defense to build frustration might work with her. I will discuss your suggestion with my helper and let you know if it worked.
Thanks again, guys.
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Re: training progress
[Re: Vince P. ]
#40293 - 10/11/2001 01:09 PM |
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Vince, Richard--
My previous response was in reply to your first posts. Now I will address the follow-up:
Vince, she has a tremendous ball/play drive, and I never saw this as a problem. I wish she had half as much drive for the sleeve as she does for the ball. She has pretty decent obedience, and it was done strictly with a ball, never had a pinch collar on her. You would think that her ball drive would transfer into sleeve drive, that's how it usually works, but not with her for some reason.
Richard, what you are talking about is EXACTLY what I want to avoid, i.e. "locking her in defense". I know that it's there and can be tapped into much later. Getting her interested in prey is where the problem lies. The defense approach was tried just to see if her weak sleeve bites were due to genetics and since that was ruled out (she bites very hard in defense) we immediately went back to prey. She's just not that interested. That's why I think your previous advice might work. Do you still stand by it?
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Re: training progress
[Re: Vince P. ]
#40294 - 10/11/2001 01:30 PM |
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Renee,
Yes, I would still stand by it. I would build the frustration by mixing defensa and prey behaviors in the helper and only releasing the dog when the helper is in the prey behavior. The dog will learn that he has to make the bite when the helper is in the prey behavior, not just in an attack mode. Frustration is the key, once the dog is making the bites the defense use is reduced to zero. Another thing they have used with some dogs here is to put the dogs on a bungee cord so it has to fight hard to get the bite. The dog has to drive through the resistance of the bungee to get the bite. If it doesn't the bungee pulls them back and builds the frustration. In addition if the dog mouths on the sleeve the bungee will pull them off.
If the dog really likes to bite there is something else you could try I have used before. Work only in prey if the dog quits then take him off to the side and make him watch other dogs work. Let him get as frustrated as possible and then put him up with out another bite. It usually doesn't take long that if he wants to play, he has to do what you want to get his bites. If not he can't work.
If you can't be a Good Example,then You'll just have to Serve as a Horrible Warning. Catherine Aird. |
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Re: training progress
[Re: Vince P. ]
#40295 - 10/11/2001 01:37 PM |
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One other thing. Often the carry is a sign of the dogs sense of ownership of it's hard won prize. Often the higher the frustration level the longer the dog will hold the sleeve. With dogs that don't feel they had to work very hard to get the sleeve they don't seem to see it as much of a prize. They also see releasing the sleeve as an invitation to start again so they can do more work with the sleeve. With my Giant if the agitator releases the sleeve as soon as the dog makes the bite he will just stand and look at the agitator and spit the sleeve out at them. If you give him a significant fight for the sleeve he will hold it and carry it around for a while.
If you can't be a Good Example,then You'll just have to Serve as a Horrible Warning. Catherine Aird. |
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Re: training progress
[Re: Vince P. ]
#40296 - 10/11/2001 02:34 PM |
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Ooohhhhh, yeah, they sure can get locked in defense. I've got one of those too, also can't title him. He can do a send out, tho. Poor helper should have thought ahead the first time he tried that. Dog hits sleeve, helper slips sleeve, now what? Dog spits sleeve, eats helper. Not quite, I got there in time.
I've never been convinced that a stressed dog will have a weak bite. This dog hits so hard you can hear it down field, but he was always totally stressed out in defense. We spent I dunno how many mos trying to teach this guy to carry, which he would do if required, but at the first opportunity, spit the sleeve and go right back after the helper. He's even been known to p/u the sleeve and hurl it at the helper, no kidding. Never could find anyone willing to wait for him in the blind . . .
I've given up trying to title this dog, tho we're having the Anne Kent seminar here and I'd like to have her work him and see what she can do.
This dog is my poster boy for why you don't start a green dog in defense. If I'd known then what I know now . . .
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Re: training progress
[Re: Vince P. ]
#40297 - 10/11/2001 04:13 PM |
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Again Richard and I are saying the same thing only he communicates better than I. Frustration is the key! But I lean more towards prey frustration than defense frustration because you cannot go too far in prey but you can in defense.
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Re: training progress
[Re: Vince P. ]
#40298 - 10/11/2001 05:43 PM |
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Seems like all three of us agree -- frustration is the key! Vince, we tried frustration with prey, but in my case it didn't work. I will take Richard's advice and promise to proceed with caution <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> .
Thank you again!
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Re: training progress
[Re: Vince P. ]
#40299 - 10/11/2001 07:13 PM |
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Vince,
I think the idea is a little different. My point is that you can use defense to build prey behavior. It may not be a pure prey drive, but the behavior would be the same. You can go the other way with some dogs to, use prey to build defense. This would be part of what you are doing with the Schutzhund courage test. Start the dog chasing in prey and then turn on him when he has little choice but to make the bite he has his heart set on. Then use that to shape a defensive type behavior in the dog.
Given a choice of prey or defense I would take the defense, but like everybody else I want both. It is easier to convert the defense in to prey than the other way around. The isdea for Renee is to use just enough defense to keep the dog interested and when she starts to show the frustration switch to prey. The least possible amount of pressure and then convert to prey and then reduce that amount of pressure to zero.
If you can't be a Good Example,then You'll just have to Serve as a Horrible Warning. Catherine Aird. |
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