Hmmm. . .a showline breeder that thought they gave someone what they were really wanting?

I don't know a single showline breeder that doesn't claim their dogs are working dogs. Not a one. . .

That's how they sell their pups. They have the pretty color, the VAs, and the MYSTIQUE of the working shepherd dog. . .without the real abiliy.


Butch might have a point to a certain level, work with what you have. . .but that sure is a pain in the butt if you don't have much to work with. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I'd consider selling the pup or getting him a playmate in about 6 months. . .a working playmate. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Originally posted by Anne Kent:


You should also look at the other side of the equation. You will have to ask yourself if you told the breeder exactly what you were intending to do with the puppy. Perhaps they really believed they were giving you what you wanted. This is true also, i have seen people coming to our training field looking to buy 'personal protection dogs' or 'building protection' or what not and beeing turned away by intensity of working dogs. 99% of them want nice GSD that barks and plays well with kids (and yeah, 'why are they so thin?').

I believe it's a statistic thing. I personally believe there is more possibility getting a pup with more drive from a Working line breeder than a show line one. But then there is no absolute guarantee. Even opposite thing could happen. Even within a same litter, pups can turn out to be completely opposite personality.

After all, it's all anecdotal. There is no scientific research saying how much more drive a working line pup should have than its show line counterpart. show line breeder may never put same amount of effort into building drive and training their dogs. And how much drive is enough drive? A normally active dog to me could be too much for another person, and vice versa. Plus, how do you judge a definition "working"? by how much they pull a weight, or how high they jump a hurdle, or how hard they bite a sleeve? I don't think it's possible to sue the breeder for not enough drive coz there is no tangible evdience to prove drive.

What I was trying to say is, next time when you look for a new pup, it's wise to look into the higher possibility cluster for your answer first. But more important than that, it's to look at the individual. Don't simply judge the pup by its pedigree. That's even a little bit similar to a sports discussion they had before. You should not say a black guy is born to run faster than a white guy when you had one experience seeing one black guy run faster than a white guy. Although it's not really all the same, but I guess we can learn a little bit from this analogy.

Look for litters that are repeat breedings. Then you can look at the previous pups.
Puts better odds in your favor.

I think it depends on if the pup was represented as working line, or having the possibility of working ability.

If the pup isn't showing much promise it would be easier to find a pet home for it now than as a young adult. Something else to consider, since most people that buy pets want puppies.

To be fair the breeder has been nothing helpful. They have misrepresented a few things but on the whole they have been honest.

They told me they would get me exactly what I wanted. I wanted a dog whose parents where both SchH3 and they got me a dog from that litter.

I'm getting attached to the little guy for the most part. The only resentment I have is when I try to get him in to prey.

I guess I just have to decide if I want one GSD or two.

 Quote:

After all, it's all anecdotal. There is no scientific research saying how much more drive a working line pup should have than its show line counterpart. show line breeder may never put same amount of effort into building drive and training their dogs.

The later part of your statement is true, show line breeders do not normally put in enough time training their dogs. However, it is not antedotal, it is fact, that there is a much higher percentage of working ability coming out of working bloodlines.

As I said in my first post, I have the "opportunity", (if you want to call it that), to work lots of show dogs. Some actually bite and can even handle some pressure from me without letting go. However, most will show that pressure in the grip, or after the out, usually by trying to bite me in the legs after they run around to the back. The nerves simply are not what they should be and courage is almost non exisistent. Even the ones that don't let go during the biting phase, will almost always shut down after the out. When the added pressure of the handler, asking the dog to control himself, is added in, that is, (nine times out of ten), the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back...or in this case, the dog's spirit and drive. What little was there to start with, evaporates at that point. THAT is not working ability. A GSD should be able to withstand stress. The ability to handle stress is what makes them good workers and also excellent family dogs. This behavior of trying to bite the legs after the out is IMO, a sign of instability and weakness. I have seen this so many times, it is what I consider a "trait" in the show lines. There is a nastiness in many of these dogs that shows itself when the pressure is on. If you listen to show line breeders, you would think the working lines are the maneaters. We are breeding for "too much aggression". Well, aggression is an important part of the GSD. If the dog has good nerves, there is nothing wrong with strong aggression. What I have seen in these many show dogs is... sometimes the aggression is there, and most of the time the nerves are not. This combination, or should I say lack of combination, results in behaviors I don't ever want to see my dogs displaying. It is one step away from dangerous, IMO.
The showline breeders need to get up to speed on what temperament in a GSD really is. They can tell you about croups and toplines all day long but just ask one to describe temperament or working ability. I am sure you will hear lots of "ums" and "er uhs" while they try to figure it out. Make sure to ask them right after they work one of their own dogs, (if they even do that themselves), in protection, that is always entertaining. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Chris, this was my experience: my pup was shipped to my sister first,(until I could get there 3 weeks later) along with all the necessary videos! She was great about watching the videos and working the pup as learned. She was concerned because the pup did not exhibit this 'great' prey drive and certainly did not retrieve. (Sound familiar?)

When I arrived, I too was concerned about this 'low' drive and worked at it. Too make a long story short, there was nothing wrong with the dog's drive (she was the ankle biting, defiant little twerp!) It just took a building period. Also, bringing the toy back was not her thing (at the time) it was hers! Retrieving does not have anything to do with prey drive.

She improved (or more likely, I improved <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) after 12 weeks of age, with short sessions, 4 times a day. She now has prey drive through the roof and has learned to bring things back!

Other factors that affect the temperament are recent vaccinations (really make a dog low), diet, worms, ect. Just wanted to express what Butch said, sometimes it just takes a building period, along with other transitions. And not all pups are graceful, my pup was as clumsy as anything.

Also, what toys are you using? Some pups don't like hard toys and prefer rags and tugs, something to sink their teeth into.

Without knowing your pup's pedigree, I can understand your dissapointment in a showline dog. But maybe your pup just needs some time...

I'm getting attached to the little guy for the most part. The only resentment I have is when I try to get him in to prey.

Hi Chris, I wonder what kind of a prey item you are using and how?, some pup get turn off if the prey item is too big, so try something small and smelly like your sock <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> , make a jerk but short distance movement when he jump or get close to it, you might also try to tie your sock to a string on a stick, a small jerk sometime turn them on and your might bring the drive out of him, also try to do it in an undistract environment so he can have all his attention to the prey item. I hope I did not tell you anything you already knows, just like to help.
BTW I manage to bring the prey drive out of my 12 weeks old Pomeranian this way, now she has more prey drive than some of the German Shepherd dog I see at my club. :rolleyes: