OK, what I seem to be hearing that's applicable to my situation is that I have to play a more active role. IOW, when Luna pushes her way forward, I have to make her wait, while at the same time enforcing good behavior on Oka. If I'm consistent, then Luna should eventually settle down and accept her subordinate position.

For the time being, that means making them both sit when they run up to me, preventing Oka from immediately jumping her when I release them, and preventing her from provoking him in the meantime. Otherwise things get out of hand immediately.

I think there may be an element of "bullying" in Oka's behavior, in addition to what I described. But I'm the alpha, so I have the right to put a stop to that.

DISCLAIMER: I'm going off on my own here, so feel very free to DISCARD this advice!

They seem to be after your attention since it happens as soon as "you show up". Maybe you can get together a couple of people that "read dogs well" as well as yourself and have these two others have your dogs on leash while you go from one dog to the other giving them them praise and treats for sitting while keeping the other dog in a sit as well. Have these two other people keep their eye on the dog thats not getting praise from you, and if that dog breaks his sit or acts up in any way, he gets corrected(your voice,their motion). Back and forth you go with them for a few days until the behavior subsides <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Dave, you hit the nail on the head. Yes, you need to take a more active role. What I would first like to suggest is plenty of one on one training with them, especially working on the stay and the wait.

With the bitch, really work hard on teaching her that if she wants your attention, she must sit politely in front of you and wait politely for you to acknowlege her.

Whenever they start to fight, separate them and put them both in a ten minute downstay, on opposite ends of the room. Ten minutes should be enough time for the tension to subside.

Eventually, have them both in stays, and walk back and forth between them, greeting each one and rewarding for maintaining the stay.
I do think that over time you will see improvement as long as you remain active in encouraging acceptable behavior (such as a polite sit) and discouraging unacceptable behavior (such as horning in). Does that make sense?

That's a pretty good idea, Jason. To expand upon that further, if we're talking about situations such as when you first get home, or first greet the dogs, do not give in to their excitement to be with you. Just ignore both of them the first 5 or 10 minutes, or as long as it takes for them to calm down. Then proceed with Jason's method. It's much easier to work with an already calm dog than trying to calm them down with affection. It will only make matters worse.

If I may disagree, strongly!!!!

Dogs should never be allowed to "work it out" them selves. That translate into "Let them fight it out". Sooner or latter that is how they will work it out. Neither dog should be allowed to be dominant or forced to be submissive.

The only exception to this is if you have a household with mixed large and small dogs. In this case it isn't that the little dog is allow (incouraged) to be dominant, but that the big dogs are taught that you don't allow them to touch the little dogs for any reason.

An example. I took my boxer to visit with us at my mothers house. The little dogs (daschunds) decided that the boxer should be in his crate or outside, no in between. So they would chase him out of the house. On of the daschunds reached up and grabbed him by the balls. He whirled around with the intent to kill what ever grabbed him. As soon as he saw it was a little dog he just turned around to go outside.

This idea that you are in charge has to start when the dogs are introduced. Neither dog can be allowed to press for dominance.

I really have to agree with Richard here...I posted something similar awhile back...I have a 6 year old spayed Mastiff, 3 year old neutered Cavalier and a 5 month old GSD. The GSD is the most stubborn, mule-headed (I really do love him!!!) dog I have ever owned. He will go after the Mastiff to play but she wants no part of it. I had always let mine "work it out" in the past and now see where I screwed up big time. My GSD takes a level 8-10 correction on most things if you want to get it through to him...otherwise you would be after him all of the time for the same things. I can't get the Mastiff to allow him within 3 feet of her without her lifting her lips so she stays on a lead with a pinch collar on it when he is out...when she snarls she gets a major correction. Not easy to do when she weighs 130 pounds but get me mad enough and it is not a problem. We are making progress but it is slow. The reason I mentioned the stubborness of the GSD is that he will keep going back to her even if she does get a snap in to him...he just won't take no for an answer!!!
Don't let yourself get into this kind of situation...it is not easy to get out of and is stressfull on everybody.

Just for the record...when I do use a 8-10 level correction it is quick, to the point, no object involved and followed by praise after the unwanted behaviour stops..He is very quick to forgive and this has worked well for us...didn't want anyone to get the wrong idea here...too much of that going on with this board lately!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Richard,

I agree that the dogs should never be allowed to "work it out themselves". That being said though, is there not a point when after one can acess which dog is dominant, that the owner can make a mistake by trying to "even the score" so to speak? I only say this because I did not take JParkers posts to mean that the dogs should work it out themselves. I took it to mean that once rank is established, one should not try to impose their will to change it or try to even it.(Of course aggression towards one another can NEVER be tolerated.) Just a thought. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Chuck,

The dogs will follow the lead of the owner. If there is never any favoritisim shown, there will never be a score to settle. The only way you can maintain a pack order is to show favoritism to maintain the order. If there is an order than the dogs can move up or down in that order. This will create the problem between the dogs. For this reason the dogs are all on the same level. Now they can't go up or down in rank, there is no point in attempting to gain an advantage. The point is don't let them establish an order. If you look at Jerri's post, the problem detailed was the result of allowing the dogs to work it out.

I'm a little confused, Richard. I always thought hierarchy was ineradicable among dogs, and that you had to go with the flow. That seems to be Jason and J Parker's advice: enforce good behavior within the existing hierarchy. Or did I misunderstand you?

Then again, the main problem is that there seems to be no existing hierarchy, at least between them--have I not come down on them hard enough? Is Luna still pushing for higher rank because I'm not truly alpha to her? That doesn't feel right: neither one has ever offered even a moment's defiance of me.

Still, the outline of a strategy seems to be emerging. I hope this discussion will continue; it's helping. Thanks.