Can someone please explain to me logic in not letting your pup watch manwork?

I did my own playing/bonding with her and bite promotion, but watching helper work other dog is something else, and when dog is ready it shure will bite that sleeve.

Originally posted by Ivan Sarac:
Can someone please explain to me logic in not letting your pup watch manwork?

I did my own playing/bonding with her and bite promotion, but watching helper work other dog is something else, and when dog is ready it shure will bite that sleeve. I have heard a bunch of explanations for NOT doing this. Yet, I visit clubs that do KNPV and this is quite common practise.
It has become much less so among schutzhund clubs after the mandate that all dogs receive their B degree.
I still do this with my dogs although they certainly are not ignored. I place them out on the fence when I feel they can handle it for short periods of time while there are other activities going on. I never let them just go to sleep out on the stake out.
This practice is an old one.
But, the arguments against doing so new ones.
I hear things about grips being poor if you do this and dogs barking at the wrong thing, and on and on.
The only thing that can happen is that your decoy could push too hard, try something at the wrong time in the dogs life, or miss a point that the dog offers up a new behavior you wish to propagate. This is where the handler needs to watch his or her dog.
I do it and will continue to.

Kevin, you say you do this when you feel they can handle it. Does dog aggression come in to play in determining when they can handle it? Do some dogs focus more on the other dogs than the helper? My expierence with group drive building is admittedly limited, but it has been my expierience that some dogs will do this. Also, in SAR, we build drive for the kong, not the helper. Could this be a factor?

Well, I was confused because I always kept my dog with me or nearby, maybe on a fence, while I was training with others. (BUT, it was a mixed group of disciplines, Ring, PP, Sch, etc..)

I would put her away( in the crate) only after we had an actual workout of some kind, and then I'd let her relax after ending on a positive note.

Then, when I had my other puppy, I went to visit a Sch club and they only took one dog out at a time, all other dogs were banned from the training floor. I was told that was for the dogs benefit, but I didn't have a clue why,and it was never really explained to me.(I haven't been back to that club, actually, it is a forming club)

With my new pup, I have trained her out with other dogs around, and she was ultra intense after seeing the other dogs do bite work. She did lunge at a passing dog, but I didn't think it was dog aggression( I was holding her leash and she didn't get near the other dog, just attempted to)but rather pent up energy and stimulation at work.
She also responded with extreme intensity to the whip that the trainer was cracking! LOL, she even grabbed it when we walked past it an hour after she had last seen it!( the trainer was holding it down in a relaxed poition as he spoke to someone and Livia suddenly just snatched it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> )

Well, so now I was not sure if the "out on the field" or the "away in the crate" was the better way to approach group training, and I want to be sure to do what is best, so.... I really appreciate the insight from the experienced working trainers <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Thanks!!

I think if I were in Kevin's club, I'd let him do just about anything to my dog to help his training along. . .


But, at another club, with who knows what helper. . .I wouldn't be so hot on doing group agitation with my pup.

Yes Van Camp, I agree! I met Kevin a few years ago and was very much in awe of his skills!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

The training scenario that usually occurs when I get together with a group is that some dogs will be working on OB off to the side of a field. Then after that, 1 dog will be doing bite work on the field w/ the decoy and the trainer while the other people will be standing around observing. Dogs are usually still around, sometimes crated in cars and sometimes on leash, and I usually spend more time w/ the pup out of the crate than in it.

Last time we trained together she was really pumped up as I described. I guess I just want to be sure that this is an OK way to handle a dog at a group training session. Ever since I was told by that Sch group that the dogs should be off and put away unless being worked, I have had worries that perhaps I was doing something wrong by having her out with me and letting her see other dogs be worked.

Thanks!

 Quote:

Originally posted by Kevin Sheldahl:

It has become much less so among schutzhund clubs after the mandate that all dogs receive their B degree.

Why is this? To avoid possible dog agression?

 Quote:

Originally posted by Van Camp Robert:


But, at another club, with who knows what helper. . .I wouldn't be so hot on doing group agitation with my pup.

But is that group agitation? Helper is not paying ANY atention to dogs being tied to fence, he is just working one dog on the field little away from tied dogs (some waiting their turn some just watching).

Or was your comment along the line of: helper ignoring offered beheavior of dog creates insecurity? I did not see any <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

When dogs don't do anything they are tied to fence away from handlers. Very fast did my dog learn to relax when other dogs do their ob and bark when is manwork.

But i get point about helper.

I dont allow dogs to watch other dogs doing helper work. Dog training is ALL ABOUT timing. When a dog reacts to a helper (one way or the other) there needs to be a reaction from the helper. When dogs are tied out there is no way that a helper can react to a number of dogs at one time.

The old "line-aggitation" or even tieing a dog out to watch is not something clubs should be doing.

Do you think that the scenario that I described would be damaging or potentially create any training problems down the road?
How do sch clubs usually approach OB work then? Do they all work each dog one by one? I only have trained with AKC type group work in the past, geared towards utility....

Thanks <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

How do sch clubs usually approach OB work then? Do they all work each dog one by one? I only have trained with AKC type group work in the past, geared towards utility....

Speaking only from personal experience, if the field is large enough, more than one person can do OB...but that's assuming you have dogs at about the same level of training! ie, more than once we've had a young dog supposedly doing a recall forget his job and run over to a another dog doing a heeling pattern. That obviously doesn't work well...)

At our club several dogs will be put in a long down while the least experienced person takes a turn doing OB. That way every dog gets some training, even if not actively moving. Dogs with Sch titles or even a BH can train at opposite ends of the field without fear of dogs "breaking" loose. It's more efficient use of time and adds distractions for proofing.

Our area is not large enough that we can have separate areas for OB and Protection. That means no blinds go up while OB is going on, since we need the space for heeling patterns, jumps, etc.

As for tying out young dogs to watch Protection exercises, our TD does do that. His explanation is that the dogs will learn to focus on the helpers movements. They first bark at each other, but eventually will start barking at the protection work. Handlers stand by their young dog and encourage the switch in attention from other dogs to the helpers movements.
As a newbie it never occured to me to question this. Sounded logical to me.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />