Originally posted by lhczth:
OK so the ZTP is all that is required for breeding and the ZTP doesn't require a working title. That was what I was asking in my origional post.

What testing goes on at a ZTP? Why allow just a ZTP and not require all dogs to go through the Körung before breeding? There is quite a jump between the two for the males (no title and then a SchH3). Just curious.

Lisa- keep in mind that it is only the minimum required and actually when administered correctly, it can be a difficult test to pass. Certain judges and clubs are avoided like the plague when offering this test, because lots of people pick and choose their judges and trials. The same goes on in the schutzhund world, and not just with Rottweilers. There are many a dog of ALL breeds with schH titles who are weak as water or only capable of attempting to perform on their own helper and backyard!
Personally I would only breed titled and proven dogs, but this is my standard. I lived in Germany for quite a while and most working breeds are titled if old enough, but to think that a title makes them breed worthy is a BIG mistake! My point is even if a schH l was a minimum requirement, people would still pick and choose, to get their weak dogs titled and breed them, probably even charging more for their get because of the title! The ztp is definitely not the reason for weak dogs being bred, most of the ones you see in the US do not even have a ztp/bst. The majority of the dogs with this title are imported that way, even then we are maybe talking 10% at best of the German style clubs, and they account for maybe 2% of the US population of Rottweilers!

Hello,The Rottweiler was bred to be a working dog the problem is that everyone that wants a big bad dog sees a Rottweiler as the dog they need and when you have the AKC to just register any dogs bred you have to many problems to deal with any body can breed. There are books on the breed standard of the Rottweiler that tell the requirements that need to be met to breed good working dogs,but then scrambling eggs is not a perfect science so you must weed out the bad to get to the good all breeds have problems and we must strive to work together to get to the main goal of good working dogs so you must get the best bitches you can if you are the breeder to produce good working dogs then study the studs to see who produces the working offspring.

Hello, The Ztp IS A BREEDING TEST for young dogs at first it was to be an untrained test so let us see how are dogs will do first we get a health cert. on the young dog ,then we report to the judge or breed warden for measurements and a detention check after that you and your dog walk into a group of strangers and do simple heeling then you leave the group , then someone fires a gun to test for a reaction, after that you procede towards the blind where a strange mad man is hiding when you get close enough he comes out of the blind to attack YOU not your dog but your dog has a second to respond to the attack he MUST BITE HARD and take two stick hits and he must stay with the man without releasing the man then you can collect your dog off the man at the judges instruction, then the man runs off saying things to you at a signal from the judge the man turns around with the sleeve behind his back and comes at you again saying things toward you and your dog when the judge tells you , you must send your dog to get the man, he must again without hesitating attack the man and BITE HARD and be driven with two stick hits again he must stay with the man until the judge tells you to collect your dog . This is the first test to be able to use your dog or bitch FOR BREEDING so can your dog do this untrained test probably not so the test has been changed to a trained test and your dog must OUT.

Hi!

I know of a breeder in europe that produces working rotts. He`s got a homepage. I do not remember the exact address, but the name of the kennel is "Vom Shcloss Hexental". He is using dogs from French and Belgium Ringsport, and have a pretty good homepage.
I have not seen his dogs, but the homepage may be worth a peek. Good Luck!

Why it is almost impossible to find a good rott??? It is partly because a lot of people is found of the rotts, their looks and the way they sound and that kind of things. The problem is that very few handlers can actually handle a strong solid male rott. Because 15-20 yrs. ago you found a good deal of these types. So instead of realize their limitations as a handler, or failing to obtain such knowledge by hard work the breeders started to use lots of the gentle, and sometimes weak dogs in breeding, so it could be a dog for everyone.

Mika, the same problem exists in the GSD. People like the looks, but don't want a real GSD. I have had many debates with people who breed for the pet market in this country.

Herb, this picking and choosing of judges and trials occurs in the GSD too. There are a ton of GSD that barely pass under easy judges and should NOT be bred. Why do you think I train where I do. I want to know what I have, not just train to cover up temperament and character flaws so that I can breed.

Is the Rott is Germany as divided between "working" and "show" as the GSD is?

Hello,

I handled a rott(belonging to a client) for a ZTP. The dog did a good job, but was a mediocre dog. I later was told that the dog didn't need to heel or do as much as he did. I have found many Rott owners who just want the title. They don't care how bad it looks...as long as the title is behind the name.

They also believe the BH is a title. I look at it as a prerequisite to a title. It is just an obedience/temperment test. We had a rott do a BH at our trial, which I would have been ashamed of. As a matter of fact, I was embarassed for the dog.

Point being, as long as the owners/breeders won't set a higher standard for their dogs, they will not improve the breed. What happened to betterment of the breeds?

I'm just entering the Working Rottweiler world - I've only been studying it for about a year and a half. I've still got a lot of varying opinions as I learn more and more. But I've been fortunate to talk to and befriend many of the top Rottweiler people around the world.

One of my favorites from the past is Pascha vom Hegestrauch - many of his offspring are quite successful nowadays. Aki von der Peeler Hütte is another.

King v schwaiger wappen, Eztel von der Silbergrube (Pascha son), Jenecks Sam, Akino v. d. Lauterbrucke, Mambo vd Teufelsbrucke, Jackomo v.d. Bleichstrasse ... Hakim, Balou, Benno, etc. I'm not well-traveled (taking my first trip to Germany & Belgium in 2004) so I haven't had the pleasure of seeing these dogs in action. So I go by the opinions of people I know and trust.

I'm not sure what you thought of Umbro and Matchos work ? you thought it reason to mention it but not go into detail ??? Feel free to elaborate.


Originally posted by Herb:
Rottweiler_Fancier-

Who are the strong working rotts you can name off the top of your head? What are these famous lines you are well versed on? I will tell you this before you answer. I have personally seen the sire of your new young male work and his grand-sire(Matcho), as well as quite a few more supposedly powerhouses as I did live in Germany for almost 10 years. I would appreciate if you can answer with personal knowledge or proven factual info. Thanks.

The point is there are titled dogs and there are working dogs, the two ARE not the same!

The list of the dogs you named are not even of the same caliber. at least 2 of the list are most certainly of top working capacity as far as producing, and they are Pascha(thru Arri) and Aki( sire of Hero and many good working dogs). since you are involed in research of the working aspect, please research how many of the big well known kennels (Show winners) actually bred directly to dogs of this caliber with their own bitches. How many of the well known big named dogs of Today that are highly advertised , bred to, and shown in conformation circles are of this blood? These dogs were not built like tanks, with bones the size of tree trunks, and heads the size of garages! Although they were conformationally correct, they lacked what is sought after in the show dog world and thus even today are used to a bare minimum in the overall rottweiler world.These dogs were workers. They were sporty built , fast, agile,high drive and of strong temperament.Arri vom Hertener Wappen was actually considered feminine looking by Germans. How many fast ,agile, Rottweilers with true endurance do you actually see being used Today? Even the USRC SCH Nationals only have maybe a dozen dogs competing at all 3 levels combined! How many Rottweilers do you see even attempt to compete at the USA SCH Nationals against other breeds? Yet, if you get on the internet and check websites, everybody has a self-proclaimed working machine in their kennel who can single- handedly save the entire Rottweiler world if you breed to them or buy their offspring. So, again I ask where are all of these super working prospects coming from if their sires and dams are unproven? Or better yet where are they proving themselves, if not on the working field?

The question was raised, is there a divide in the show and working lines of the Rottweiler and I am of the opinion that there most certainly is! You actually made the statement that it is not too dificult to find a good working prospect in Rottweilers and I simply disagree with that, but asked you too justify that by facts or proven results of these dogs. A few of the dogs you named were most certainly strong working dogs, but are not what is popular, a few of the dogs you named are very popular but are only average to very poor in the work! Most were only titled to increase their popularity and then only tilted once at that level never to see the working field ever again, but campaigned on the show circuit continuously! The information to prove these statements are of public record as the ADRK records all of this information and I am confident, as you continue to research the breed you will discover the truth from the hype! Best wishes in your search.

Herb

Herb....
http://home.t-online.de/home/thomas-holthaus/e_index.htm

The Message Board is a good resource of information for the Working Aspect of Rottweilers...I haven't found a better (rottweiler-specific) forum.

I think you should re-ask your question there.

oops, I ment "lhczth" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />