Ed Frawley Administrator Reg: 07-11-2001
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Dave - Ring sport is ALL (100%) PREY WORK - whoever you have been talking to that is telling you that their RING DOG is kicking ass in a RING TRIAL is a goof.
Any one who tells you that carrying is wrong is DEAD or stupid or both. As to your link to this recent article - it was written in 1991 and I think the author is indeed dead - so he cannot come back and jump my shit.
It's OK to have these opinions - I just do not want the rest of the board to think that Ring Sport is some tough dog sport - it's just another dog sport and nothing else. It is no different than Schutzhund, KNPV, Belgium RING, Etc Etc Etc.
Ed... your comments about Ring being all prey are exactly what I have always heard in police and Schutzhund circles.
But, I like how these dogs learn to drive through almost anything... Rattling cans and bottles, being "wrapped up" or picked up by the helper... gunfire... tons of stick hits... they are taught to fight harder to win.
Is it all prey? Maybe... but if my dog gains that level of sureness, confidence, and targeting and learns to fight harder when challenged... what a great foundation for defense or fight later on.
Dave,
I am no expert on ring training but I did visit several Belgian ring clubs and the NVBK Cat 2 trial last fall as well as the KNPV championships and some KNPV clubs in Holland. I also visited some breeders of very good ring dogs, I got a puppy from one of them!! (Joefarm)
The similarity I noticed is that they condition the entire litter of puppies from around 5 weeks to clatter sticks, gunfire, plastic bottles....My dog was gripping and carrying a sleeve at 6 weeks old. If you shake a can of rocks right now she goes wild looking for the bite, she is 9 months old and I am not actively training her.....kind of like clicker training for bitework. I don't necessarily think this makes a dog more sure or powerful.
Ed Frawley Administrator Reg: 07-11-2001
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Dave - your comments are not uncommon with new trainers. It is easy to mistakenly think that dogs that come through these kinds of attacks are Kick Ass tough dogs - the fact is that Cindy is 100% correct - these dogs are "locked in prey". If you have ever seen a dog that is really locked up you will know that these dogs can take a tremendous amount of abuse to try and get them to switch into defense. If changingenvirnment does not work (working in a dark building at night) then its going to take pain - and a dog with good nerves thats locked in prey can often take a lot of pain - they learn to hunker down and take it because they know in the end they get their prey itme. It can be NASTY work - I HATE IT !!!
But the bottom line is that you are making a serious mistake to think that RING SPORT is going to give you a tough dog that can switch drives - that is not going to happen.
So... your argument is that by minimizing pressure and exposure to things that might scare the dog during bitework...the result is a stronger dog later?
I agree that we don't want to "max-out" the dog so that it is locked in prey... but the levels are different for each dog depending on their level of prey, defense and nerves.
Is this appoach risky?... maybe... 15 years ago I was too concerned to try it.
Ed Frawley Administrator Reg: 07-11-2001
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Dave - work your dog in his different drives. Teach the dog to switch drives and work in the drives. I did not say anything about scaring a dog - lets get with the program here.
Ok... I understand... you are concerned because Ring is normally trained in prey mode only and you are assuming that this helper is typical in that regard.
Your thoughts and concerns are much appreciated. And, I definitely agree that the dog should be worked in all drives... no question about that.
Time to jump into this thread Dave. Ed is correct. Ringsport just as all the other "SPORTS" is all prey. What you see when a dog plows through the sticks or gun work was attained through a conditioned prey induced responce. It is how we get the clarity and clean routines.
Now do not get me wrong there are some very tough hard dogs out there playing the game but they are far and few in between as this type of dog requires a select handler.
Ringsport is about getting high points and not just a pass score.
Hell the very best in France are now scoring 395 out of 400. Reason is that the dogs are very good but also very impressed by the handler.
A good Police or Real Protection Dog would rather fight than work clean.
Hope this clears this up about prey drive and Ringsport.
I have been very lucky in Ringsport but some of the same tricks I use for Ring, I would never apply to one of my Police or Personal Protection Prospects.
Jerry Cudahy <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Dave, you do not understand the use of the stick in Ringsport. Although a good decoy is fast, furious and hard in the use of a stick the rules are very clear.
The use of the Baton "stick" must appear but never be brutal.
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