Robert VanCamp Webboard User Reg: 11-28-2001
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Comparing different breeds in different sports isn't telling of ability.
The reason Malinois dominate those Ring sports and KNPV is because that is the breed that almost all of the top trainers use. If all the best GSDs from the BSP or WUSV all of a sudden switched to Ring sports, would the Mal still dominate? I'm not so sure. . .
If 50% of the dogs in KNPV were GSDs and the other 50% were Malinois. . .AND 50% of the best trainers were training GSDs and the other 50% Mals. If that were the case and Mals still rocked? Then you would have me convinced.
What can't be argued is that the influences of sport and show breeding are negatively impacting the GSD as a working breed. But there is still a hard core of working GSD breeders. Things will get better as the working lines become more popular and the show lines are systematically steralized in my plot to . . .wait. . .maybe I should't talk about that on an open board. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
The KNPV trainers I have spoken to in Holland laugh at the GSD (Note, I have 4 GSD'S) when you ask about them in KNPV. The comment is always "People only title GSD's in KNPV to sell for more money".
Even the Czech police are using Malinois now.
I guess people like Kevin see far more Malinois and GSD's come through to comment far better on how each breed compare than I can.
I wish you well your plan....it's a good plan.
Show dogs are bad m'kay.
Well, the GSD nowadays, can't even compete on their own game(Schutzhund) against the Mals, let alone compete in other sports. I am a GSD person and I think that the last thing the breed needs is excuses. Instead we should all change the way we look and breed our dogs in order to be competitive again. There are a lot of top trainers doing these other sports with GSD but there aren't dogs in the same level and abundance as Malinois.
J. Lopes
I've been to plenty of police k-9 seminars where we the GSD folks were the minority. I'm not anti mal but do have a preference.
Never felt the need to lower my head because our GSD's didn't measure up especially when it came to control. This isn't to say that the mals can't be controlled. However, there are a bunch out there that aren't being controlled. The average trainer hasn't figured out how to do it.
On a side note IMO many people grossly overestimate what their dog can do in a real situation. I've always felt that we had manstoppers and for the most part we do. However, there's always someone that rises to the occasion and rendors the dog ineffective.
I know that most mals hit like a freight train. I've caught them and have been knocked in the dirt plenty but a sixty pound dog is still a sixty pound dog after it has flown through the air. I guess I've felt that I've needed to stack the deck in our favor.
Having worked and trained both breeds I can say the conversation between the breeds is one of preference. Many Mals do a great job in a working environment and home generally speaking. In fact, one very good dog in which I was the training instructor for and is still working in a correctional facility is not only a Mal but also a female. This dog would have placed first in a regional certification a few years back if not for decoy error (decoy did a bark and hold and not a run away so the dog doing her job did not bite) and even as it was placed third over all ant this was her first trial.
This dog was selected for her drives and temperament that would fit my training methods and style better then the rest.
Based on my experience about general statements of the breeds, the difference is discerning vs. reaction. Mals tend to have less tolerance for mistakes in training and other mishaps and still be considered god. GSD will be more discerning about mishaps and recover faster from handler errors.
If a 3 year old falls on this Mal I am working with I expect the mal to react defensively before it realizes what it is doing and how it was biting. At the same time my GSD probably would just get up and move away from the child.
With that said, you need to judge the dog on the individual and the job you want him to do and not on the breed.
As a breed I like the GSD the best because he may not be the best breed at any ONE job he is the second best breed for EVERY job.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
A dog teaches a boy fidelity, perseverance, and to turn around three times before lying down. - Robert Benchley
In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semi-human. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog. - Edward Hoagland
Originally posted by chris jones: GSD's cannot compete with Mals at Ring sports, KNPV and even now top level Schutzhund and IPO. Last year at the FCI all breeds the top five dogs were Mals. 9 of the top 11 were Mals. Mals have won the all breeds for the last 5 years. What does this prove?
Most of the top sport GSDs compete in GSD breed club sponsored SchH, which are considered the most prestigious dogsport events to those in the GSD world. They are at the BSP, the WUSV, etc. Mention the "worlds" or the "world championship" to GSD sport enthusiasts and they think WUSV.
All breed events like the FCI IPO WM attract far fewer top sport GSD folks because those events are generally not where one gets noticed if one has a sport GSD.
USA sends their second tier of sport dogs to the FCI IPO WM, and their top dogs to the WUSV. If the top sport GSDs from around the world competed in the FCI, the standings might look quite different.
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