There are a couple of reasons Itor will not win the BSP: Bernhard got the dog when he was 4 years old. The dog had very bad training, he is a very tough dog - he was very handler aggression (nont anymore): Bernhard said the dog will loose points for not running the blinds quick enough and the B&H is not what judges look for in the top sport dogs. This is not uncommon when you have a dog that is a street police dog, with real bites, a top WPO, DPO competition dog (he will be in the IDM this year with Itor - the International Police Dog Championships) and a sport dog. I am not sure how many street police dogs actually compete in the BSP - my guess is very few. Remember that Bernhard has been in the BSP 5 times - on three of those occasions he had the highest scoring protection dog and the 4th he was 2nd place.

I am not sure I understand that if his quilifer was a 100 points how come he would go as low as 92 in the BSP, given he did a good routine. Could you explain this Ed. Why is his B@H good for a 100 but not good enough to score good in the BSP, putting aside the fact that the judging might be a bit tougher, that is a big diffrence. This is great news that he is coming to FLorida.

I was tempted not to answer this but what the hell - Let me spell it out for you Micheal - there is a third person on the field - it's called a judge. I suggest that you start to go to a few schutzhund trials and then you will understand.

The best handlers train for themselves. They train for the points but they also train for themselves and what pleases them. The good trainers understand the limits of their dogs - they don't train for 100 points they train for the maximum points their dogs can obtain.

Here is a perfect example. If a trainer has a consitent 96 point protection routine he does not put a whole lot of pressure on the dog in the areas that he is loosing 4 points - because the penalty for a F$&^@ Up is a 80 point trial.

The trainer who trains with the goal of winning the BSP or USA Nationals has lost before he starts - the possibility of obtaining his goal is almost non-exisitent. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> :rolleyes:

Yet another good example of why I don't like competition Schutzhund. It is a great forum for training and learning, but to direct your training and breeding for 100% sporto competition work is a waste of time AND ultimately hurtful to the GSD breed as a whole. It doesn't adequately evaluate the worth of a working dog or his trainer. Sadly my opinion is in the minority, I think.

I don't think progeny in the BSP is the end all be all either. However, it does make for some interesting discussions.

Sagus bred 91 times. 243 progeny. 16 BSPs 6.58%
Xento vd Maineiche bred 48 times. 216 progeny. 22 BSPs 10.19%

Fad dogs:

Troll bred 198 times. 973 progeny. 28 BSPs 2.88%
Yoschy bred 206 times. 1041 progeny. 26 BSPs 2.5%
Aly bred 163 times. 755 progeny. 21 BSPs 2.78%

I don't have all the stats on Grief. Just that he had 19 BSPs. You look at Sagus 6.58%, Mink 4.4%, Lewis(Mink son) 4.52%. Less breedings same amount of BSPs. There has to be something there. Again, the BSP isn't the end all be all. But I think we are starting to get into the Nature v Nurture debate again.

OK Todd - where are you getting your stats?

I am a pedigree feind. I have the WinSys program also that helps. I have scores judges and handlers as well.

Are there any stats on which bitches have produced well?

Think about it, a lot of mediocre C, C- bitches are bred. But if you have an A, A+ bitch, you would never intentionally breed to a mediocre male.

In my area, many people speak highly of Alk v Osterburg Quell... a Lord son (I haven't seen him in person).

But Alk has been bred to A LOT of mediocre bitches. Guess what?... many mediocre pups.

A guy I know has an Alk son. He is a long hair. And also for sale.

As far as females. That is tough. My database has dogs that have competed and their pedigrees. It will take some time to go back through and find out. There are a couple other people working on it as well. Bruce Brisson is a data hound last I knew he was working on the female side.

One of the more well known females. Umsa vom Bungalow.

I just did a quick check of her. She was bred 8 times. I don't have a total progeny. I show at least 21. Probably more though. She produced 6 BSP participants.

Olf vom Forsterhaus 4x
Gildo vom Korbelbach 3x
Jenny vom Korbelbach 3x
Jupp vom Korbelbach
Mirko vom Korbelbach
Troll vom Korbelbach 2x

My Mara is 4-4 on Umsa. Thanks Ed