Will, I do not want to own a PP dog but I do wish to understand where such types of dogs fall in a breeding program, existence of traits in males vs females, etc. The referenced articles do not seem to portray as extreme an image as the posts do.

The more all of us can learn the better we will be at selecting dogs for our own intended purposes. And we have a vested interest in understanding which lines tend to be best suited for which purposes even when PP is not our purpose.

e.g., when I got my dog I wanted LOW social agression, moderate dominance, high drives, hunt drive, and high thresholds -- one of her littermates is in patrol work, several are doing well at schutzhund, and she is doing SAR work

But thanks for your insights on the other breeds --- I thought Boerbels were used to guard children and families and were pretty solid. I have a friend with one and he is a sweety and seems to have a pretty high defense threshold - he is very stable and unflappable.

VC, Ever get the feeling you are being ignored? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I think he is used to that...

 Quote:

Originally posted by VanCamp Robert:
Break down "social aggression" into the identifiable and specific inheritable traits you want . . . .and you might get a realistic answer to your question.

I thought I had already made this clear in one of the many topics, but I will say it again. This whole discussion was for me to understand social aggression and the dogs that portray this. Vancamp, you have been following this topic, as most that have posted here. I thought there was a lot of good helpful knowledge in The social aggression topics that painted a clear picture of the type of dog we were talking about. What I was asking was the opinions of people that have had experience with dogs with high levels of social aggression, and the experience with the dogs that produce this. Vancamp: I am talking about the dogs with the "edge" we discussed. Dogs that only should be serious PP dogs or patrol dogs these are not pets and these are not the SAR dogs that were brought up before. Not necessarily a dominat dog but dogs that have the real natural aggression and suspicion of strangers. And I dont care about the opinions of people who think that I should not own a dog like this. take that to a PM. Im still waitng for one, but havent got one because some seem to have a desire to make me look bad on the board. I dont mean to offend anybody, but when People just say off the wall stuff that has nothing to do with the subject, that bothers me.

And Glenn: someone cut my post in half(probably for the best) so my true feelings were not exposed about your thoughts. Please PM me and I would love to talk with you in private about anything you mentioned including Dean. That goes for anybody that thinks like Glenny <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

These are lines from which I have SEEN dogs come from who were able to offer the defensive and offensive behaviors I want to see in a working dog.

Emil z Pohranicni Straze, Ben z Bolfu and his son's Grim z Pohranicni Straze and Uher z Pohranicni Straze, Drago z Humnan and his son Cir z Vrtovske doliny, Cordon An-Sat and his son Tom z Pohranicni Straze, Iwo vd Buschecke and his son Kazo z Pohranicni Straze, Olav z Jirkova dvora, Eron Mat-Roz, Arko von Grafental.

Natz vom Arolzer Holz and his sons Ilko vom Peko Haus and Condor von der Bildsäule, Karlo vom Peko Haus and his mother Erle vom Buckower Feld (or more likely in my opinion BECAUSE of his mother going back on the killer combination of Caro vom Allerswald, Fang vom Stahlhammer, and Bernd Lierberg), Greif zum Lahntal and his many many excellent producing progeny and progeny's progeny (my favorites being Arthus and Mink), Mink's sons (just pick one LOL), Conner vom Leineholz, Aron vom Bracheler See, Ike vom Haus Larwin, Vico vom Wolfendobel, Greg von der Zitadellenburg, Ron vom Peko Haus (best patrol K9 I've ever seen was a Ron son from a Peko Haus breeding named Vasso), Andy von der Bildsaule, Urs aus der Hopfenstraße. . .


I can't think of any others that I have seen, but I'll comment on one of these dogs specifically.

Best dog I've ever seen in the flesh in my entire life was a dog named Uher z Pohranicni Straze. . .he had everything I wanted in a protection dog and more. LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Most of those dogs are old dogs, and you could only hope to see them heavily linebred on in the 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6ths generations.

I'm going for heavy line breeding on Grim z Pohranicni Straze , as I have both a male and female grandkids out of him that I am well pleased with.
Hopefully, they will both throw the type of aggression that they show me in training daily to their pups <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Thanks VanCamp. I am interested in the inheritence of temperment within lines, and am fairly ignorant yet about GSD lines. I'm reading, but that's not the same as other people's observations.

While I can't prove anything about my bitch's breeding, we have a limited number of breeders in my area who could've produced a bitch who looks and works like my girl. Some of them come with some temperment baggage (reportedly), and threads like this (when they stay on topic) help me separate the wheat from the chaff.

When this topic came up, I wasn't completely sure what the term meant, but immediately thought of one of the great old track dogs from the 40's.

His name was Colfax, and he was a BIG dog. He was a dog with a lot of power, and known for turning (looking back to intimidate the other dogs). One old guy told me Colfax could stop an entire field mid-run and hold them just by turning. That's pretty amazing, especially if you've got some experience with hounds in drive <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Even in the 80's breeders told me that if you picked up Colfax 5 or so times in a breeding, you'd get dogs who turn.

I'm not going to go too deeply into this topic, but when talking about social aggression, it might help to use the characterization that (I think) Bernhard Flink used in talking about dogs that were "short-nerved" vs. "poor nerved". The idea being that a dog could have a strong character but still have a defensive drive that was accessed quickly - that isn't to say that that dog would light up over something that wasn't a threat, just that they did so quickly. The dog to be avoided, of course, is the one that becomes aggressive and defensive over any stimuli.

There might be an argument that too many dogs aren't short-nerved enough for some work.

For VC, is that a trait that you don't see enough of? Certainly, the Czech dogs seem to exhibit a high level of suspicion and "shorter-nerves" without compromising their character or judgement, but my impression is that more and more workinglines are lacking a bit of that suspicion.

Alan,
I think that Bernhard's discussions regarding "short nerved" vs. "weak nerved" has confused more people than nearly anything else that he's discussed in his seminars.

People hear the term "short-nerved" and think it's a flaw, when instead it means a dog that will rapidly go into drive, or become "activated" to an environmental stimuli.
Bernhard also uses the term "thin nerved", and it means the same thing in those discussions.
Mals are commonly "short-nerved", as am example.
The term that most Americans would use to describe this trait is "high drive"

Now the term "weak-nerved" is a flaw. It's a temperment issue, and it is a poor quality for a working dog.