Carolyn, I have a Crok grandaughter and that makes Mink her great grandfather and Crok is one of the sons *implicated* by those who don't like Mink. I was not going to respond until I saw that you really were not asking a question but making a statement based on heresay.

I cannot tell you the people that crawled out of the woodwork telling me that my dog was going to eat me alive because of Crok (and the fact that her mother was from the *infamous* F litter Wannaer Hohen, which stirs up even more fires)

Well, I did my research on the lines and the mother, and talked with a lot of people and am glad I made the choice I did! I have a little dog oozing confidence, smart as a whip, good nose, stable solid nerves, hard as nails, and no fears she will ever come up the lead at me. In her, I also have a dog that can be a defiant little cuss and look right through me...what a character! But she is a solid little dog.

You asked a question and some people WITH these dogs in their lines answered honestly. Good grief!, I only know enough about Czech/DDR lines to know that I would be more careful there, as there are some great dogs but the small population I have seen are much more of a handful and certainly more Civil with lower thresholds, than I am ready for and have seen in dogs with W German lines. Hooo Hah talk about generalizations. I would not hesitate with a Czech or DDR dog if I was working with someone I trusted who really understood their lineage but know there is more variability in what is out there.

You said "why start with a dog..." .Well there were, perhaps good reasons that these dogs WERE bred so much. I do know Mink was reputed to bring good Hunt drives which are not specifically selected for and I have seen a significant number of SAR dogs with Mink close up in the pedigrees ..................... I cannot speak to the others I *have heard* that Fero produced very well with some bitches and very poorly with others.........but it sounds like your mind is already made --- shame......

Carolyn:
"boy just like with hotrse forums you cant sayanything without having someone get touchy about their chosen lines.I personally do not see why people can't be objective about their own lines."

Here, let me translate what Carolyn is saying:
"I can't see why you all don't agree with my poorly researched ideas"
:rolleyes:


"The fact that a couple of you came back with some rather rude replies makes me wonder if thereis not some truth with what I had heard or you would not be so quick to get defensive!"

First off, *NO ONE* made a rude reply - your interpretation of that sures makes it look like you're trolling for a fight though.
And when you troll with poorly researched ideas, yep, maybe more knowledgable people with experience with those lines will take offense at the totally inexperienced big mouth who seems to just be posting rumors about a subject that she doesn't know beans about.


"Would yourather I just get the dog and place him a few months down the road due to not doing my homework first?"

Nope, with the homework that you're doing, how about doing everyone some good and look at yellow lab's, or some basically harmless breed, ok?


"And if you think czech/ddr dogs are junk fine that is your right too but people please stop taking things so personally "

Carolyn, *again*, no one here was saying anything of the sort. Please don't take conversations that you're having elsewhere and bring them here.

I am very curious about this handler aggression subject. I have never experienced it before but I have watched how some people train, and if I was thier dog I would have bitten them as well. Often I see frustrated dogs when being petted during bitework go after the handlers hand. What usually happens???

I am curious too. Did a lot of research on it but that makes me an informed ignoramus as I, thankfully, have no personal experience with it and have limited exposure to dogs in the sport or LE, with the exception of SAR dogs ..........

My take home messages were (gleaned from others so I cannot attest to their validity!)

* More prevalent in males than females
* Often occurred if dog was strongly corrected before bonding occurred (got this from some LE I trust who import and train green dogs)
* As Patricia said, more likely to be *brought out* by certain training methods

I've never had a problem out of these lines. I had a female that was 2-4 on Fero. One of the most awesome bitches I've ever been privilaged to own. No handler agression what so ever. I have a few pups out of mink lines, so far so good. I have a 16month old coming thru mink lines, no problems. Importing a male that's 4-3 on Mink, we'll see <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> The only dog I've ever owned that was handler agressive was a Pike son and someone on this board is lucky enough to have him now, lol. But what an awesome male.

Angela:
"The only dog I've ever owned that was handler agressive was a Pike son and someone on this board is lucky enough to have him now, lol. But what an awesome male."

For those of you that don't know, I'm the new lucky owner of Angela's handler aggressive male ( sold to another handler previously, and now in my possesion ). His Ob is very good and he was trained to an excellent level in tracking ( Thanks, Angela! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )
He's definately my "points" dog.
I'm thankful to be able to buy a dog of exceptional quality who's only major flaw is handler aggression ( that, I *can* fix ).

I think the points that Nancy laid out are likely true regarding the orgins of handler aggression.

If I could've fixed it, you wouldn't have him, lol. Don't forget to let me know when he trials!

jeff, there are several threads already on handler aggression and posts made by people who have experienced and dealt with it. check out the behavior problem section and particularly the dominant dog and aggressive dog threads. i had to laugh when i read your comment about how some folks train and if you were their dog, you'd bite them, too. i've thought that a bunch of times myself. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
i've had some real questions about definitions. what some people call dominance or aggression in a dog is something entirely different to me. there have been oodles of first time dog owners that have posted about some problem they are having that seemed to me to be a normal "growing up" thing and not a dominance issue at all. i sometimes wonder at what people call aggression, too. since carolyn didnot specify which acts of aggression the dogs in question were supposedly guilty of, and since i have not experienced it in my dogs, she and i may have been miles apart in definition. there are plenty of ways you can get bit by your own dog that have nothing at all to do with aggression. an accidental bite in play, offering a food reward, uncontrolled excitement, etc. heck, some folks might figure anytime you get nailed by your dog that it must be aggression. i don't know. i do know that i got hurt a bunch of times by one of my old dogs that was not the least bit handler aggressive. it was a matter of a very high drive dog with some nerve issues. it was especially evident when capping her. she would sit/lay there and vibrate, teeth chattering before a retrieve, send out, or going into the blind. then, when i released her, she'd go like shot out of a cannon and i'd better have all body parts out of the way! i suppose some people would have called it aggression......especially when i was dripping blood, but i never saw it that way. she absolutely adored me as i did her. god, i miss that dog!

Well Carolyn, as some people on this board can tell you I had the same thoughts about Mink and Fero dogs as you do. Looking back, (it wasn't that long ago either) gosh I was really ignorant! I still don't know very much about bloodlines but that was really being STUPID (me). In fact, the breeder I ended up getting my pup from I knew of for a long time, but didn't look into them or their dogs because I knew they liked Mink so well. Didn't bother to check out why they liked him, I just beleived all the bad stories. Mink or Fero are only one part of the pedigree out of how many other dogs. I ended up getting a pup from the breeder I didn't bother to check out right away, sorry Chris. Boy, I am glad I did! My pup is young, but she is awesome! She has one line to Mink on the top side through Ernst and Lewis. She is only 9 months old, so I suppose it could still develope, but none of the bad things I have heard about that line have been true. She is training to be a SAR dog, and I have 2 small children. My experience with her is that she is the smartest dog I have ever owned, is a very good worker for her age, and has loads of personality. I also have a friend who has a female related to Nancy's dog through Crok and the F litter wahner hoen (sp). She's a really nice dog too. Mink and Fero are not the only dogs in a pedigree, and it's the whole pedigree that should be taken into account. Not to mention the sire and dam themselves.

Brandi here,
Thought I'd add my 2 cents...which it usually gets me in trouble here <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
My male, Ando is line bred 3,3 on Fero. Have no problems w/ him. He's handler easy. If he makes a mistake, all I have to do give him that "Mom eye" and he straightens right up.
NO handler aggression here!