Sorry, Vince! I probably just misunderstood what you were saying. I am not always good with words so I try to make sure others understand what I say. But this misunderstanding was mine. I'll crawl back to my corner now. LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Caniche,

It sounds like you have the dog perfectly trained. After a recall the dog finishes. So it is just saving you time and effort. I think the way around this is not correction, but variety. One of the dangers in training is that it is easy to get into a routine. The problem here sounds like finish always follows a recall, like down only comes afte a sit. If you follow the routine enough the dog will always sit prior to downing, even without the command. That is just the way it is done. I would try this. On most occasions for now walk towards the dog and call it to heel. Walk off at an agle and call the dog to heel. After a while go back to working the finish after some recalls, mix it up and see if that doesn't help.

Richard you make a great point, which I was debating on whether to include:

It is quite possible that the dog made the error due to improper training. But even if that is true their still has to be negative association with this behavior. The dog must understand that in SchH it is ALWAYS I say – You do.

Yes it is up to the trainer to readjust his training techniques in response to this but every training session should be built upon your last one. Training should be a constant evolution. Note: Do not confuse anticipation with spontaneous rehearsal (when you give a command and your dog reacts by performing a serious of commands until he gets it right). Your dog does not yet know what is expected and should NOT be corrected.

Richard has the right idea. Why punish the dog for something you taught him to do. When the dog anticipates, the first thing we should asked oursleves is, what am I doing wrong. I was always told that the first signs of learning for the dog is anticipation. The rule should be to vary the exercises and remember the rule; Undesireable associations are impeded by a separation in time of the events concerned. Wait at least three seconds.

Alan:

I have strong opinions on this one. And until Kevin gives me one of his famous nooooooooooo’s and totally screws up my head I will not budge on this one. To help you to understand I will make the analogy of proofing your dog by having him in a down and instead of saying HERE you say TRAIN. Yes your actions led to his failure but he still gets corrected.

Vince, I do understand dog training and have a slight grasp on K9 psychology. Now you are talking about training commands and the dog misunderstanding, as long as the appropriate amount of time has passed since you put him in the down. That is not the same as the dog chaining events together in anticiaption of the next event. Unless of course you are doing it in rapid fire succession. Anticiaption is not the same as misbehavior. Learning is done by using motivation; training requires compulsion for reliability. The point is, why correct the dog for something you taught him.

Vince,

I don't have aproblem with an individual correction, I think that it is important that you (generic) understand that all behavior is taught. If a dog is engaging in a specific behavior over and over, it is better to look at how the dog was taught to do that behavior and modify training to eliminate it. This is one reason I teach both the front sit and recall to heel (Military finish). If the dog is doing the command because it is pattern trained, it may not have associated the command with the action. It is just following the pattern.

Oh, one other thing Vince. If your actions lead to his failure you should be correcting yourself.

Sorry guys. I am having a hard time understanding why you do not understand this. This is pretty basic stuff. Let me try one more time. Read the following carefully and take a moment of thought before responding. In SchH you teach a dog that you give a command and he must stay in that position until the next command is given. That is why in SchH you use Down and not Down Stay. Because the dog should stay in the down until you give the next command. The same principle occurs with the recall. The dog must stay in the Here until the next command is given. It is the most basic rule of SchH obedience and MUST be enforced EVERY time.

Alan:

Come on now. Using that mentality you should correct yourself ever time you proof your dog. Think a little before you jump on me.

Vince,

We aren't talking about the same thing.

1- If the dog is making the same mistake over and over, it hasn't learned the command.

2- I thought we were talking about AKC obedience not only SchH training.

3- If there is a training failure, why keep doing the same thing that created the training failure. Change the routine until the proper associations are created to the command and then go back to the routine to proof it.

4- Stay is implied. It should not be givien with all commands. It functions as a verbal correction prior to a physical one.

So we are talking about different points in training. If the dog is at the end point and has demonstrated that he understands the command, then a correction and move on is proper. If you are at the begining or a mid point and the dog is demonstrating that he doesn't associate the command and the action, but is reacting to the pattern trained, then the association in the pattern must be broken so the command can be learned. If the exact same error is made in the exact same point on a consistant basis, the command hasn't been learned the pattern has been learned.