My mistake! I had just come home from a l-o-n-g day at the office when I posted that and, rereading it, I realized just what I wrote. I did not intend to use the word "genetics." Sch3FH2 is correct--littermates do not have the same genes. Sorry everyone!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

My point was simply that you could get the same bloodlines with a littermate and, so long as he's healthy and has had all his clearances etc, still have the potential to produce what you are looking for. For some, this is a viable option. For others, it is not the right choice. If you are able, by all means use the stud of your choice and not his brother!

Again, my humble appologies for any confusion!
Kali :rolleyes:

Kali, Thanks for the post. It was quite helpful. And no sarcasm! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> It makes alot of sense about writing down the good and bad points of my dog. I have actually thought about doing something like that. I guess I am just going to have to get in the game and stay in for awile and soak up all the info I can. I am also glad that you mentioned that breeding was a gamble. For some reason I always got the impression that all the good breeders know exactly what they are doing and which dogs go with which and end up with dogs that they expect to get, and all along, I was just missing something. I guess some breeders can to an extent.
Thanks again for the help.

I still dont know If I agree with you guys on the genetics thing with littermates. I mean, dont the pups get 50% from mom and 50% from dad?

Howie, do you have a brother or sister?

Are they just like you?

Chances are NO. Unless you are identical twins...

I think it's more than that, meaning more genetic features of the female make the majority.

If you had the same amount of siblings in a family, like you did in a litter then you would see that more clearly. I think is was easier to chart in the old days because so many had a lot of children. This was done from what I've read.

That doesn't mean that if have a sibling you both resemble your mother more than your father, BUT if you had ten siblings, more would be more like the female with their chemical and physical make up.

Just an opinion, I could be wrong.

Howie, also one thing to know from what I've heard, you're going to be lucky to get three to four pups in a litter that are worthy of what you want on average. The rest will be better as pets generally. This isn't always the case but often so I read. So whatever traits your breeding for in particular you want to have 3-4 pups will the desirable qualities to have a successful litter.

ED!!!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Have you EVER seen a GOOD working dog breeder that didn't WORK DOGS?? How does one figure out what is a good dog without any experience working dogs??

Thank you Steffen and SchH3FH2, I seem to have been misunderstood. Let me say this again. If you have zero, or next to zero, experience working with working dogs then you have no business breeding working dogs- because you know NOTHING about working dogs. You can't just read this stuff on the internet and be an expert. . .far from it.

I don't see how anybody can disagree with that.

Unless you are Howie, the one with next to zero experience. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Now I suppose that someone with a lot of money could go out and buy a proven bitch and then breed to a proven stud and get good results, but that has nothing to do with a persons ability or understanding. That guy just went out to SOMEONE that trains and breeds good working dogs and another SOMEONE that trains and breeds good working dogs and brought those two people's work together. Maybe that is were inexperience people should start if they are only interested in breeding dogs, and not working them.

Hey VC, I had said originally that I somewhat agree with you. I certainly feel that knowledge of THE ACTUAL working and training of dogs is one part of the puzzle when becoming a breeder but doesn't hinge exclusively on that. Like I said, I know many, many top trainers of working dogs and I would not buy a puppy from the large majority of them because they are basically ignorant of compatible bloodlines, they breed what they have in "their" kennel or they breed to whoever is winning in their sport. Some don't--but in my experience most do.

Another comment on bloodlines and successful breedings....someone told me once (maybe Ed?) that a litter is only as good as the worst puppy in the litter......food for thought.

Originally posted by VanCamp:
You can't just read this stuff on the internet and be an expert. . .far from it.

I beg to differ Camper. It is done all the time. They see it on the Internet, they copy it to hardcopy and read it where they breed. In the backyard.

Did I miss something here?

I go with VC in that a person has got to have some basic knowledge before one can proceed and breed a litter of decent working dogs.

Sure there are people who do breed without any practical training or working experience that means anything but a lot of times these folks are coached by others with the working experience.

It is a part of gaining experience.

With this said there is still more to breeding working pups and understanding the working virtues of the Parents used.

Background genetics and the propencity to renew these genetics is even more important.

Health issues that are associated with breeding lines is also important and knowing why you do not breed that great biter and tracker and obed dog because they only live a fraction of a normal dogs life.

I still think most replying in this thread , including myself are not seeing the whole pic here.

Jerry

And then it comes to the trainer, that doesn't have a clue about breeding. I've got 50 dogs working, not a single one of them was chosen because of where it was bred, how it was bred who the bitch or the sire was. They were chosen soley because they had what it took to do the tasks for which they were being trained. The past may be important to show dogs etc, but to working dogs it's not where they came from but what they can do for you that is important.

DFrost

No one said the raising/training portion was the WHOLE picture. Certainly not. Just one important piece of it. Then you just have to hit the books and study genetics - there's another couple of years easy!

Originally posted by Howie:
I still dont know If I agree with you guys on the genetics thing with littermates. I mean, dont the pups get 50% from mom and 50% from dad? Sorry, Howie, but right here, you just told everyone that you are in no way ready to think about being a breeder, since you have no understanding of genetics. I don't mean that to be ugly, but you've got a LOT of homework to do yet.