Thanks for the input Trent. Somone really would have to be damn determent to go through a GSD and a bull mastiff, I think you can sleep pretty soundly and save your shotgun shells for the birds. Now back to your first reply Will. Surley a well bred GSD (czech bloodlines) with some protection training, will do more than bark at an aggressive intruder? Do these dogs not have a natural protective instinct? I would think that even your average protection breed witnessing their owner being attacked, would come to their owner's defence, let alone a Czech GSD with protection training. I could be totally off the mark here, as I have no real experience, but I find it hard to belive that very few dogs would not attack an aggressive intruder. I look forward to your replie.

After rereading your post I see I did not even come close to answering your question.
Every Malnois I have ever met have been very tough although the ones I have met have been used by our local police department. I know these dogs could take on any man and win. Anyway at least that comes closer to answering your question than my last post.

Jeff,
A well bred dog may or may not engage an intruder. If it does, it does not mean that the dog is a PPD, nor that the dog has fight drive. A PPD must have fight drive.

The difference is this: If an intruder came into your house with aggressive intent, you would defend yourself, right? Or your wife? Of course. But it is defensive, not offensive. The point of your defensive aggression is to make the threat go away.

Then take dude #2. He hears someone jimmying the doorknob, and thinks 'Oh goody, someone coming in the house. Now I get to fight for real'. The point of the aggression is to engage in the fight. The prize is the fight itself, not the cessation of the fight.

It is the difference between someone fighting for their life, and someone willingly, with joy, putting themselves in the ring with Mike Tyson. For the challenge, and the thrill of the fight. Every hit you take doesn't make you fight harder for your life (as in the defensive person), but is thrilling, only because it means the fight can go on.

Needless to say, finding a person who will fight Mike Tyson for the joy of the fight is rare, as is a real PPD. And it goes without saying, fight drive requires training and maturity; you can't expect a green dog (or a person) to handle stress like that.

At least, this is what I have been able to extrapolate from this board, so I hope I have got it right!

Nice explination Melissa. From the perspective of a non-PPD person, I would think that many well bred dogs MIGHT engage a perp, but it's the well bred, well trained dog with the correct temperment that will keep him in the fight after he takes a kick in the ribs. Even a dog that is born with the "potential" for fight drive, wont come through without the confidence building that propper training gives it. Without the propper training, you've got a well bred junkyard dog.

Ok so assuming that both dogs have equally strong fight drives, will the Czech GSD be as formidable as a Malinios? Or are both these dogs put to shame by some of the bull breeds (dogo, am.bull,) when it comes to pp? I am just looking for the right dog for my personal needs, which is a companion/guardian, and I am wondering if the Czech GSD will fill this role just as good if not better than the malinios and other protection breeds. Hypeathetically if you guys where the perps breaking into a house, knowing what you do about these dogs, which one would you least like to face? Thanks again, i'm just trying to base my decision off what breed to go with, on peoples opinions who have more experience than me.

Jeff,
First off, take a look at what has been written in these forums by knowledgeable trainers about the bull breeds as ppd's - for the most part, none of them have the nerves or drives required for the job, and they get a lot of hype, but there is very little proof to make up the wildly *exaggerated* claims that the handlers and breeders of that group of dogs make up.
Notice you don't see bull breeds in police work. Ever wonder why?
Fiction won't protect you and your family.

All the reality based protection sports are absolutely dominated by Mals ( as they would be by GSD's, if any handlers cared to use them in that venue ) which is further proof of the fact that the bull breeds are pretty much hype, and not much bite. Don't fall for the snow job, please.

If I was a knowledgeable perp ( and if I was, I wouldn't be a perp. Smart people don't break into houses. Stupid people do, or mentally ill ones ) I would most avoid a Mal or a Czech GSD. But again, if a perp can tell the difference between the country of origin of your GSD, he likely would be in an other career field than crime. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thanks again for the insight. Just want to let you all know that I consider your opinions and advice very valuable. I look forward to more of your advice throughout my decision on which breed best suits my lifestyle, and finally the development of my selected dog.

Jeff-I read earlier you already bought a pup. Good for you and welcome to czech GSD's. I will only add to what Will has said. You can NEVER be sure. I have a z ps female who is a extremely well bred dogs and one of the last dogs truely bred at the old Z PS kennels. She is not yet 4 years old and I am seriously thinking about selling her. She is a fantastic working dog especially in tracking. She is a great dog in the house with my 3 year old daughter and with the cats. However she is at best a very average "real" world fighter. And that is being kind when compared to real good "combat" dogs. She does have the desire to bark and growl but would really rather not brawl. For 90% of the people she is perfect. I have a very high standard and judge all dogs against a 7 year old male I have with 41/2 years as a patrol dog. He is to me the perfect dog and a great family and very gentle with children....he does not however favor cats so its tough to let him roam the house or we would have 2 dead cats. The event that is pushing me to sell my female is that I am a small scale commercial hog farmer. About 30 sows and sell about 600 head anually, 1/2 for market and 1/2 for breeding stock or show pigs. Anyway as an animal lover I believe personally no animal even the ones who will end up in a oven should be kept in total confinement. We give our hogs a chance to graze in open pasture(pigs eat grass like cows) and in late fall the pigs get to clean up the corn field. Anyway last week my male GSD and myself were moving a group of young female pigs who got full of themselves and wouldn't cooperate. They got into a tight grove of 14ft tall cedar trees laced tightly with blackberry vines and decided to stay. Well I sent my dog in and he was whipping pigs left and right. But he got tangled in big blackberry vines and was getting jumped on and beat up badly by a dozen 100lb pigs as he was basically tied up and trying to fight. My female heard her friend, playmate and Alpha dog on the property yelling for help and she casually ran around sniffing the ground and enjoying the nice weather...despite my commands to get in the fight. I crawled in on hands and knees to get under the blackberry vines and fought side by side with my Bestfriend. I got a 1 inch gash on my forehead which I stiched up with some super glue. My male with his heavy cold weather coat had no cuts and was crazy mad. I had a dozen pigs which had bloody ears, snouts and big cuts on their backs and necks. After the event ended the pigs didn't feel too tough anymore and begged to get back in their home at the sight of the big GSD who had them dead to rights out in the open. Now after my anger went away I realized most dogs would not want to jump into a dozen mad pigs but its part of the job here our place once in a while. The only reason I am questioning selling this female is that she produced the best puppy I have ever seen at 10 weeks of age. I mean any puppy any breed-looks, intelligent, heavy bone and head type and absolutely fearless. i had to pull the 10 week old female puppy out of the fight with the pigs and put her away as she would have gotten killed.
You can't be sure-the Mom has the genes but is not a dog who could be a Patrol dog-she could be a great narc dog but not patrol. She is 99 or 100 tracking dog anyday and a very good protection and obedience dog and loving house dog. NOT A POLICE DOG. However when bred to a hard dog she produces a fantastic couragous pup. Good genetics sway the odds greatly but as WIll said the fallout rate for police/military dog is great.

Then again, why would a smart dog go after pigs in the bramble? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I would say that to judge a bitch like a dog would be the mistake here. Keep her for the fact she produces better than herself. I don't think that happens too often.

Jeff-I am considering myself somewhat of an idiot for thinking about selling her. She is from a litter who is all good hips, from a mother who was from an all good hip litter and her mother has produced 100% good hips and her father is know for healthy dogs with good hips. Plus I always wanted a dog that was from the real Z PS kennel and she is. But.....I only keep a handful of dogs here that belong to us. We have 5 right now. My male is turning 8 in May although you would guess he is 4 or 5,-he is my best friend and 24/7 companion. I hope I have him another 4-5 years but even if I do he may not be up for working long hours with me outside. I will need another "buddy" dog who will have the job of moving livestock which might not always want to move. Its a need I have and a very real one. Without my dog I would be posting "free pork" on here as my freezer won't hold that much. Because without him my shotgun was the only other way to move them. I need a dog to work stock and spend "farmer" hours outside with me. I had this female earmarked for this but its not working out. I guess I am dissappointed because she would not even try. She just went about her day without showing concern for her companion. I guess it was extra frustrating because a couple times we would pen all of the pigs but one and then my dog would get after it and it would start screaming and the other pigs would run out of the pen to its rescue!! I thought damn these pigs are doing it but my bitch won't. Most likely I'll import a male pup to eventually replace my older male and hopefully in the meantime work with him to learn the ropes. Or I may raise one from this bitch or another one. This bitch did raise the best puppy I have ever seen-little female tough as nails. Would be the perfect livestock dog but I gave this puppy to my wife so she can train her out herself. This puppy has all the drive and desire in the world, my wife really loves her and she should be easier than most to train..this will be my wifes first dog to title on her own. MEanwhile I am most likely going to keep my Z PS bitch. Great genetics and she produces.....that should be the basis I judge her on. Plus she is titled and is a great sport dog. Oh well..can't have it all-at least not all the time-Derek