well I am afraid I am asking for it all. From what I have learned so far I am not looking for a schutzhund proospect as they normally work out of prey more than defense drives is that correct? That is part of the reason I am looking at ddr/czech dogs as I have heard they make excellent personalprotection dogs.I happened to have met in Scottsdale back in like 1996 Hans of Alpine K-9 knowing nothing about him or Czech dogs at the time and loved the dog he showed me who was I believe zv1 titled and very smart.I have never forgotten that dogs ability to discern between threatening and non-threatening behavior in people.I would like anyone who has had any dealings with Alpinek-9 to private message me
...I really like a lot of Zorro van Laager wall descendebnts and wish to know what they are like to live with...do females/can females make descent protection dogs? Why or why not?

Caroly,

Yes bitches can make good protection dogs. It is about the drives and training.

As for the dog you saw, you have no idea what it took to get to that point. My Giant is still occasionaly rank at 8, but he is also a Therapy dog at the local hospital. Serious protection dog, but as friendly as can be when there is no need to be protective. It took a lot of work and socialization to get to that point. Seeing the finished product for a short period of time doesn't really tell you what it took to get there. I would love to look like Arnold Schwartzenager, but I don't want to do the work it would take to get there.

And I bet that dog was SchH titled. Many of the working street dogs are SchH titled. A protection dog is the product of it's training and drives. At the level of drives you are talking about you are going to have a hard time getting a serious protection dog.

sounds like a catch 22 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I was told he was zvv1 but don't remember anything else.It sounds like I either have to get a "soft" dog idf I want one to be good with my kids and cats yet I want a protective dog so I can't win? What amI going to have to give on to get close to what I want?

Not quite,

You can get what you want if you are willing to work long and hard with a dog and work through some things that you may not want to. Or you can get a little bit "less" of a dog (which may be better for you) and work less hard and be not quite as much in some other areas. You need to make some realistic decisions about what you want. Sit down and make a list of what you want and then take that list to someone that knows the dogs and listen to what they suggest. Then make your choice based on the trade offs you are going to accept. More work/more dog, or less work/less dog.

I have to add something to this discussion. There are dogs who could be described as almost perfectly balanced between prey and defense and also are what Flinks calls 'clear headed' and others would describe as calm nerved. This type of dog is usually very self-confident and able to discern the difference between the quick movements of a child and the stealthy ones of the bad guy. I am fortunate to have such a dog- Olk vom Leerburg- and others have told me that he is the picture of what the GSD should be. He has held bad guys for the cops and is also totally trustworthy around my grandbabies. So- yes- there are such dogs. I would say if you are looking for an all-around dog rather than just a competition dog to really try to meet the parents and siblings, if there are any. This can be really helpful in determining the future temperament in a puppy. Hope that helps!

well - coming from a horse background - I think that the training experience you have can be a benefit in dogs..there are so many parallels!!!

I also feel that male vs female is not as important as genetics of temperment and the individual - my last litter had a super dominant bitch puppy who if trained in the sport would have needed a very strong handler, and a more balanced, yet dominant male who would have made a perfect companion/competition dog for a woman! He is now the future competition dog of a very experienced trainer. And the factor of getting a dog as a puppy will play into the dominance issue. Many people who compete get an older started or titled dog - the good ones generally ARE dominant! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Yes, there are lines known for handler aggression - and IMHO dominant dogs who are just like a horse in that figure out with a new person on the end of the lead - that they can get away with more...

I believe in BALANCE in all - it can be done - but too many people prioritize and/or look no further than the schh3 dog down the road or in the club or at the top of the podium without considering the compensatory and common factors in the male and female

I do agree that a czech line dog is NOT going to make the best companion dog - do you want a dog who could end up like a JRT on speed?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> You like the dark sables - fine - it can be found in other lines - I have a pretty dark bitch, part czech, and bred to a black, she will produce darker I believe...

I like the dogs i saw on your website.Yes from what I have seen I do not want a dog out of TOTALLY czech lines but what about crosses such as ddr with some czech or old west german/ddr/czech? I am fascinated by pedigrees but of course phenotype is just as important and of course there are differenceds between individuals even in the same litter <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I lived with a Zorro LaagerWall son for 6 years.. Bob vd Neptungrotte, Sch 3 IP3, PSH3,FH this was the clearest dog I have ever owned.. Was very serious.. yet totally clear.. the pups he produced could do protectionwork.. but were VERY slow to mature. Was a joy to live with. I still have frozen semen from Bob.. just haven't found the right bitch yet to breed.

Carolyn,
A lot of these dogs you mentioned are a high caliber working line balls to the wall want to work willing too work! Richard and may others have mentioned it takes time,commitment and training to get to the level where these dogs are at and it's training every day no matter how little even for 5 minutes.
You seem to want the best of the best and you seem to want the best money can offer like great horses (VERY EXPERIENCED IN BOTH)but remember how much work you had too put into your horses to get them to where they are. There is a big differance between having a pet and companion compared to a working personel protection K9. Chose wisely and if you do chose a working GSD be prepard to work him or her or you will end up with a distructive and unruley K9 who will make you miserable down the road when they mature.
This board and website is a great source of knowledge!! Ask these experience trainers/handelers/and breeders they have been doing for sometime.
This only my opinion! I'm not here to piss anyone off.
Be Safe and enjoy!
Lewis R. Fronk/Argo
Aponte's Bail Recovery Agency
Knox, New York

Thanks.I guess if I get a pet quality dog the best I can hope for is a psychological deterrent based on the dogs size/looks but don't count on him or her to protect me.On the other hand a fully trained protection dog could be a liability not just legally but also because I have kids who are with me part of the year plus 2 Siamese I would like to see live to old age!.Neither prospect is very appealing to me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />