Once upon a time, I did think that working dog = vicious dog and that show breeders were the true guardian of a breed. Then I started to actually meet and learn about working dogs.

Personally, I have found that working breed dogs bred for the pet market turn out worse than other breeds. I'd noticed it before, but the most dramatic reminder I got of this was the case of the pet rotties.

I adore rottweilers, but I nearly came to hate the breed when I worked at a vet tech in a upper Manhattan (yuppieland). The rotties we got were all there for either minor surgery or for observation to ensure that their diarrhea wasn't something more serious -- and to a dog, they all went to pieces. Doubtless they were all friendly sweet dogs in the safe familiar environment of home, doubtless they had fine pedigrees, 'responsible' breeders and loving owners, but in the hospital they all anxious, barky wrecks who needed to be treated with kid gloves lest they freak out. No bite incidents, thankfully. It was disgraceful -- the poodles that came in dealt much better.
I've met some great, solid rotties (though not at that clinic). They've all been from working backgrounds.

The thing is, it's very easy to breed for sharpness, the facility to perceive threat and working dogs have this to a good degree. It's not something that disappears readily simply because you're not breeding for it -- and many people love it because it gives that 'alertness'. However, it needs to be balanced by strong nerves and a willingness to work under even the most adverse conditions. These things disappear very quickly if you don't test and breed for this. Most especially if one does not test the dog under stressful conditions. Don't be impressed by how sweet a dog is when all is well; the measure of a dog is how it copes when all is *not* well.

I feel that it is pure irresponsibility for anyone to breed a working dog without knowing, respecting and being willing to work for good drive and temperament. It's from such breeders that the best dogs come, both for working applications and for the home.

And as for working dogs being show dog rejects, don't be silly.

Dei.

Hello All:
In the early 80's I got a bull mastiff who I showed in AKC conformation shows. This was a dog who came from great show lines, both parents were in the top 10 the year the dog was born. The breeder was very well known and well respected in the breed clubs, etc. My experience was very negative. I witnessed people who would touch up the dogs coat with "chalk" to create a more uniform color. I saw people dye their dogs to more desirable colors, dogs that had their jaws broken and reset to create that lower jaw that sticks out ever so slighty. In the same litter as my puppy, there was a male who at about 6 months old had only one testicle drop. I was told, they knew a vet who could "in exceptional cases would place an artificial testicle in the dog so he could be shown." I don't know if they actually did this, but they informed me that they knew someone who could get this done very easily. At about a 9 months to a year old, my dog had developed seizures, had serious allergies, bad hips and his nerves were a shambles. My breeder had people lined up to breed to my dog and when I questioned his health and how I didn't think it was fair because he was very unhealthy in spite of being a good looking dog. I don't know if other people had any experiences like this with the show crowd. When looking for a new working prospect one should think about the following:
1. Can these dogs do the work that they were originally bred for.
2. Good health & sound temperments, stable nerves
3. The reputation of the breeder.
4. Pros and cons of the sire/dam past littermates
5. Does my needs and wants for a dog fit the description of what the dog was originally bred for? Show dogs are like runway models and beauty pagents, all they focus on is the exterior and then try to force the idea of that this is how the dogs (or people should look) and that will translate into how sound their dogs are and they are the best representations of the breed and this is what they were bred for. My experience is that the show crowd was deceptive untrustworty and would do or say anything to get their dogs that little blue ribbon. I wouldn't take a show dog of any breed any time - in my opinion, the breeders can't be trusted and this will show up sooner or later in their dogs. You can't compromise integrity and form must follow function.
Just my $.02,
Brandon

OK - I kinda feel that I'm going to get nailed for this, but here goes.

I've had a couple of PM and have received good information, but this remains unclear to me.

I purchased a grandson of a VA, SchH III West German World Sieger and a VA, SchH III Canadian Siegerin. In 5 generations, ther are only 7 untitled dogs, 22 VA rated dogs, and many V rated dogs. I did it before joining this board thinking I was getting a dog that could compete in Schutzhund. The breeder has 30 years of experience in thesedogs.

BUT, these are "show" bloodlines. What I'm hearing from this board is at best, these dogs are (as one person said), CRAP. If they are Crap, then are the world sieger shows CRAP.

I just don't understand.

Doyle

You bought German conformation line dogs, better than American conformation line dogs but still not my first choice. What do you think the world Sieger is? Its the DOG SHOW for GSDs. It isn't the BSP.

>The argument is that breeders call their >dogs "working dogs" because they aren't show >quality, or because they have a TT and a CD. I >think Vancamp, and I know I, want to see a >little more than that before we call it a >working dog.

I agree fully with this. However, I also think there are other venues of work that could classify a dog as a working dog. I don't think Schutzhund and ring sports are the only type of work that can catagorize a dog as a "working dog", but I do agree that these types of venues fully test a dog for ability and temperament better than anything currently available. A dog that performs an activity at the request of the handler, and does it well under stress and physical demands, is to my way of thinking, working. Herding dogs come to mind. And I will say that I believe herding is the most demanding activity a dog can do. Just try to work light sheep in a large area on rough uneven ground, and see what your dog needs to do to get the job done.

My comment about dumping or killing a dog is in refernce to most people's inablilty to deal with a dog's prey drive, and their willingness to give it up for euthansia when it bites someone. There are a lot of those around and they are not going away. Most of us have taken "problem dogs" that were simply not channeled in the right direction by the previous owner.

...most people's inablilty to deal with a dog's prey drive...Susan

And therin lies the whole problem. If everyone bred strictly for working ability you would have a lot of dogs out there that the average pet person would not be able to handle. But if you tone down the working ability for the average pet person (who in actuality drives the dog market) then the working dog people get outraged.

There are a lot of willing people out there that want the idea of a working dog, without the whole package. That's why there are labs who wouldn't even retrieve the TV remote, 100lb golden retrievers, GSDs and dobes that hide in the closet when the doorbell rings, rough collies that haven't seen a sheep in 10 or more generations, etc. etc.

There are border collies still used for herding, there are kennels that breed working labs and springer spaniels. There are even kennels working to bring back the retrieving standard poodle. There are obviously kennels that breed working GSDs, dobes, rotts, mals, etc. As long as there are people who care enough about their chosen breed to keep the initial breed standard, traits, and characteristics in mind, working dogs will not die out. I'm glad there are working dogs out there. Do I own one yet? No. Will I? Definately. What breed? I don't know. If you truly have in mind a dog with a working persona, then do your research.

True working dog people are probably in the minority as far as dog owning statistics goes, but that doesn't mean that other dog owners don't want their dogs to have some of the abilities to work and participate in dog sports whatever they may be.

Otherwise you may as well just stick the majority of modern dogs from any breed in the Non-Sporting group. Or better yet why not create a Non-Working or a Non-Herding group. How about a Terriers who Don't go to Earth group? The only group that really hasn't lost its purpose is the Toy Group. So in essence does that make them the only true working dog?

Dogs have been a part of man's life for thousands of years. Modern society dictates that dogs need not work for their meals. It used to be a status symbol if you owned a dog strictly for companionship. It meant you had enough food on the table for a luxury item, a pet. Does that make wanting a dog as a pet wrong? No. Only different from the way many breeds may have started out. It is the 21st century after all, and there aren't too many flocks of ducks, or herds of sheep and cattle in the suburbs.

Sorry for the delay in getting back to this but I am in the U.K. and when you guys get going I'm generally tucked up in bed.

I still stick to my opinion that dogs's roles evolve the same as human's. Even you guys have evolved a tad from the cave man days .

I thought of the Rhodesian Ridgeback today - a dog bred to fight lions!!!!The standard requires this ridge of hair on the back which my vet says is a form of "spina bifida" Does that make sense to have a fault as the norm in the breed standard?

Actually - I don't think I've ever seen an American show line GSD - don't think I want to either. Here in the U.K. due to our close proximity to Germany most of our dogs are of German ancestry. The top breeders here regularly travel to Germany with a view to increasing their breeding stock. Most are breeding to uphold the breed standard and to produce the "complete" GSD i.e. a dog that can do any job required!

My GSD is of German ancestry - descended from Uran - there are 3 Siegers in his pedigree! O.K. I know Uran to you guys was a "show dog" but still the foundation was there. The Germans do not allow crappy dogs to breed!!

My dog is a pet ( to you guys I s'pose he's a waste of a good dog) but he is my constant companion and is a joy to own. Would he protect me when the chips are down? He already has. Would he make a "working dog" - I'm sure he has the right attributes to learn well.

He is safe around children, wary of strangers until I say it's O.K. and guards our property .
In fact he is everything I wanted in a dog.

Gwen

I think the main problem with dogs is what was said before, its the pet owners who are driving the dog market. When a breed catches the public eye, there goes the breed as you knew it. Its a pattern that has repeated over and over. Once the dog is in high demand, anybody will be breeding them to make a little money. Someone wanted to breed to MY german shepherd, telling me we could make some money!? Meanwhile his stud dog was an 8 month old German Shepherd that he couldn't even leash train ....

Then we'll look at the "show people." Take the Fox Terrier breed. Caught the eye of the show fanciers and went more and more away from their original purpose. They'll tote around the phrase "Form Follows Function" but don't they know that FUNCTION comes first?! They think if they get the dog to look right, it'll do its job. But someone once told me (and I completely agree) that it is harder to breed for a correct temperament than for correct conformation.

I think the real problem is people buying a breed and then CHANGING the breed to fit THEM.

Well, let me give you perspective from the buyer's point of view.

I did 6 months of research, bought several books, talked to local "dog people", talked to several reputable breeders, etc., etc. before making a decision. I am just now beginning to understand the different sections in the industry and the biases therein - and I don't view myself as learning impaired. While I did not seek a pet, I did want a dog capable of competing in Schutzhund.

I've read many mission and ethics statements on the websites of breeders and everyitme I inquired guess what I was told!! SURE, WE GOT A DOG FOR YOU! These were not backyard breeders but rather breeders with pups up to $3,000-$5,000.

So, as a buyer, am I to devote a lifetime of study before I'm qualified to buy a dog? or until then, I'm limited to a dog from the local pound? What must I do to satisfy the requirements that I don't try to change the intended purpose of the breed, let alone bloodline.

In my humble judgment, the responsibility is YOURS, the breeder. If you want your dogs to retain their original purpose, then don't sell to someone who is inadequately informed - perhaps have a standard test for them!

I read where there are some 100 to 200 dogs entered in the BSP - so limit your willingness to sell only to those who intend to compete in these trails - or protection, or police, etc. That way, others who desire one of your dogs won't buy it!

The FIRST breeder I found to totally and honestly inform the public (after I purchased my West German "Show" dog) was Leerburg. He says:

1. I only breed working dogs,

2. I give preference to experienced trainers,

3. I have website to educate the public,

4. $1,800 is too much to pay for one of my dogs as a pet.

If all dog breeders were honest and candid like this, my guess is there would be less problems with "...pet owners running the industry.".

If you were looking for a university for your son or daughter, I will bet you that after you make the decision, you won't know much about the working of the school, the quality of teaching or research, etc. etc. So, should I simply kick you son or daughter out of my classroom because he/she did not know all the background and mission of higher education?? I think not. Again, it is my job as the provider of the product/service to carefully screen who buys my product if I want to preserve it as it was 100 years ago.

I hope I don't get kicked off of the Discussion Board for this, but I really believe it is a two way street. Trying to buy a quality dog for an intended purpose is NO PIECE OF CAKE!

Doyle