Quote:

Originally posted by Pauline Heiny:
My impression has been that the dogs you guys breed are very hard to handle and and could be overtly aggressive for no reason without the proper training. You are saying that they are not. That answers a lot of questions for me. I guess I am having a hard time understanding the nature of the true working dog and as a result have a hard time understanding why they are bred to be that way - they sound dangerous unruly, and hard headed unless they have expert training.

Well, I have a good example for you. I have a male out of a very strong, well accomplished working GSD that also has a "reputation" for producing handler hard/aggressive dogs. Do I have this problem? Not at all, he's quick to obey, very compliant, and a good all around dog with great work ethics (even considering he's still in the "big puppy" stage at 15mos).

The difference could be me, I'm a very alpha type personality, but if that were true, would he be so loving and caring of my children and wife? Yes, he is a little hardheaded for anyone but me, but he still does what he's told to do. He's very good at "threat assessment", very good in crowds, and with strangers (even more so with children...he absolutely loves them and will let them "torture" him just for their attention).

A dog this calm and confident that shows no aggression unless it's warranted, you'd probably never guess that his sire is Stormfront's Brawnson (dual purpose K9 & SWAT dog) and his dam was a working border patrol dog from the Czech republic.

Dominant? Yes, but to tie into Deanna's comments, it's dominant to other animals, not aggressive but letting them know he's the Alpha dog, but shows none of that towards family or handler. Decoys...well, that's another story.

And quite honestly, a lot of problems I see are caused by the handlers/"trainers"...not training the action then correcting for non compliance, confusing the dog and it reacts to the harsh treatment.

You can still get a ton of information out of this board without feeling (too much) that you're not part of the "group". Enjoy it. BUT, this is primarily a working dog site with a strong vision of what the GSD and other working breeds should be.
I have a standard poodle (nice obedience lines, some relatives in the field). How do you think I feel coming here sometimes?
This is <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> THE BEST <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> canine discussion board around....that's why I'm still here.

READ and LEARN.................. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Melissa,
for what it's worth, I think a standard poodle can be great working dog! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I really liked the example of your dog! I don't know why it is that when I think of these dogs I think of dogs that are basically mean. Well I do know - ignorance. But I do appreciate a more accurate portrayal of what these dogs are actually like. I understand more where you guys are coming from and maybe you can understand more why someone who is not familiar with real working dogs would hesitate at the words dominant, aggressive etc. And someone mentioned that they hoped I had studied the breed before I got one - well, I did a whole lot of reading a calling people who had owned dobies. My readings led me to believe that the dobie is a great family dog - "trustworthy with his master's children, friends and company." My readings also led me to believe that the Doberman is mostly a family dog. And the people I talked to led me to believe that as well. And in my statement about breeders catering to the "family" I did not mean that you guys do not have families - I meant that you have the ability to train these dogs appropriately which is not common knowledge to everyone else that has a family. I found most of my info on the dobie on the AKC website and dobie books etc. I did do research and they ARE portrayed as a family dog by supposedly the "experts". Had someone told me that these dogs are strictly working dogs and should not live with normal families I probably would've turned elsewhere or just stuck with the Danes. So it is a shock to hear all these things and it does take you back a bit.

I've heard a lot of stories of how when dog owners get in trouble how their dogs miraculously become vicious monsters and save them. I want to know the real story on that. Would most dogs just lay there and let their loved one get beat up or would they do something?

There is nothing wrong with having a dobbie that is from showlines, as long as you don't expect him to work. I'm not saying he can't work, there are always exceptions. Many working dogs that I have been around are happy, friendly family dogs, great with kids and other animals. the fact that your dobbie is doing what you want from him is all you need to be concerned about, he seems to be what you want. you are happy with this dog, don't worry so much about the fact that he is not working lines. I've seen working line dogs that are lousy watchdogs: too friendly, weak nerves or poor owners that never taught OB. Sounds like you have a very nice dog, I'm happy for you.

Thanks Will.......sniff, sniff.
I think I need a kleenex.

I think everybody has the right to choose the breed of their choice.However I think it is very wrong when people don't have the time or the desire to learn how to become a handler that can deal with the issue's that sometimes arise within their breed of choice(a well bred speciman with their true personality in tact) so in turn select a watered down speciman to suit their needs instead of learning how to be a better trainer and owner.This learning should begin before the dog is purchased and during his whole life.My inlaws own well bred Labs and I would choose the route of walking through a fear induced barking Dobie before I would walk through a well bred Lab protecting his family.Don't fool yourself.Let's just hope that all the dangerous people in your area can't read dog's very well.A well trained,well bred dog owned by a responsible handler,that has get up and go is not a menace to anyone but the people that are up to no good.And I might add a absolute pleasure to own!

Pauline,

Most dogs won't just lay their while the family member is beat up...... They will activly RUN AWAY.

The Dobe club involved with the AKC has bragged about breeding the working potential of the vast majority of the Dobes in the U.S., simple fact. The AKC has worked at eliminating, or at least STRONGLY discouraging the participation (any participation) in "biting" sports. The Doberman Club started to challange that and the AKC threatened to remove them from the organization (The dogs couldn't pass the tests any way) so they dropped it. There is a good article on this subject by Jim Engle called "Beagles 13, Rottweillers 1". It refers to the representation in the AKC governing body based on breed representation. Look at some of the other breeds, what do you think the Lab people would say if the AKC banned participation in Retriever trials?, How 'bout the assorted Pointer breeds if their field trials were removed?

Good dogs don't "become vicious monsters and save them (the owners)". Most have been trained to do it. Even a dog with the proper genetics can have the instincts so inhibited by training that they will not bite. Well trained protection dogs are probably the safest dogs around. The reason is that they have been taught to react to a set of cues, and their reactions can be overridden by a command from their owner. With an untrained dog you don't know if you can control the dog. A friend of mine as a very well trained BRT that she thought she could control under all circumstances, until the dog had an agitator in front of him. On one pass he bit a sleeve so hard he bent the bite bar in the sleeve. She can't stop him in training with out someone else backing her up on another leash. Now the dog out weighes her, but you get the point. She thought she could control him in all circumstances, she discovered she couldn't.

These dogs often carry a set of personality traits. They will often react to circumstances with some pre-set behaviors, one of which is they will bite. These are NOT dogs you can just throw in the back yard and not train. If you do you have the problems you see on the News. The same thing could happen with any breed. The bites are more interesting if a "killer breed" is involved. Nobody cares if the Yorkie around the corner bites a kid. If properly trained and introduced to the living circumstances they make wonderful companions. Even with dogs that are "dominant" and "handler aggressive" you are not talking about a running battle for the dogs life. It tends to come and go and then settle in to an understanding between the dog and owner. It may get entertaining for a while, but it isn't a constant battle.

Maybe this is the wrong "forum" for you, PJ.. Maybe there is a "show-line" chat forum out there for your non-working dobie.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

It's starting to get through my hard head I think!

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