PSA isn't exactly as difficult as SchH or FR either, so it attracts a larger group of people.

Maybe in another few years it will rival SchH and Ring sports here, but it doesn't now.

I would say it is pretty similar to SchH, minus the tracking...

maybe the OB is a bit easier, but the bitework is alittle tougher

No point VC, just asking a question. It appears that in the space of a couple of years PSA has gone from nothing to the talk of alot of people. Im wondering why it seems to generate alot of interest? Is it easier than other suit sports? or is more "real life"? Iv'e never seen it so I can't comment. I'm not saying it's bigger in FR but it is growing faster than FR is and if keeps doing so it will be bigger. Just interested why.

It might be growing within a certain element of society here in the US. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Matt, I don't think it compares to Schutzhund. There is "tracking" so to speak, in the protection phase, where the dog has to search for the decoy in the woods, and do a building search. That's realistic criminal tracking. And I wouldn't call the obedience phase any easier. Everything is basiclly the same but the dogs aren't given extra points for looking flashy. The dog can heel on either side, and the retrieve is done with real objects like a water bottle, wallet, or pair of glasses thrown in tall grass to test hunt drive as well as natural retrieve instinct. And in bitework, a full firm grip isn't stressed as important like in schutzhund, as most of the bites are done in defense. In ASR, the decoy doesn't wear a bitesuit to promote prey drive as in FR or MR, he wears it to protect his body.

I'm not familiar with PSA, but it also sounds interesting. I'm sure these sports will rapidly popularize as more and more people get tired of teaching their dogs how to play "tug".

1>(asIt doesn't have the legitimacy of Schutzhund a bitesport that can be a very important thing.

2>.How many Schutzhund people are really interested in the actual working ability of the dog and how many Schutzhund folks are only interested in the ability of the dog to score well?


I have too agree with VanCamp for one reason. Law Officers & Security Officers ,We need real dogs when our life is on the line in the streets.THAT SHOULD BE THE VERY IMPORT THING IF YOU ARE USEING A DOG FOR THIS PURPOSE. Performance,That should be all the legitimacy you need.The Germans from my understanding quoted>>AMERICANS BREED FOR LOOKS NOT PERFORMANCE.They don't buy dogs from us!. Nor do we buy from us.! That has been true.It's like loveing a women or dog because of it's looks. MY POINT IS COMING!
Some mals don't have papers from KNVP lines.But here people here find AKC Papers.FRENCH LINES TOO BELGIAN LINES REALLY. How in the Hell! . Some will pass out, Die if you don't have papers & sell them a dog with out them. Or will not buy a dog from you if you tell them the truth that you have no papers but watch my great dog work & judge him. MAINLY WORKING DOGS ARE EXCEPTED LIKE THIS FROM A SEASON HANDLER WITH A PURPOSE TO WORK A DOG WITH WORKING ABILITY & HERITAGE.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> THIS IS JUST MY OPION BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN AROUND ASR & SCH.
As ASR doesn't have the legitimacy of Schutzhund as a bitesport that can be a very important thing for people TOO SEE ON PAPER IN OUR COUNTRY. IT'S THE POPULAR THING puppy peddalers/back yard breeders becuase they no about SCH.. LIKE AKC WHEN IT COMES TO PAPERS. it's MORE POLITICAL CORRECT TO BE IN SCHUTZHUND THAN ASR.It sound good to say schtuzhund don't it. When I was little I thought I was saying something when I said my dog great grand was sch I. Now that I no about the seriousness & necessity in life for a real dog.Not a paper tittle.I was a foolish little boy that had a lot to learn. Plus ASR hasn't been around as for granny knows about sch..sport TRUE. PLEASE DON'T BASH ME. But I can train just for a schutzhund exercise with a weak nerves dog or a good poodal and pass. Can you don't this in ASR OR FRENCH RING. NO WAY. it all boils down to work to pass for points or pass for lifes' survival . That very Pretty, well breed, weak nerves, sort of skidish dog will shut down in one legg of the exercise(IF NO FIGHT IS IN HIM). When it's time for the building search or three man attack Boy there are many other thing I can think about. The jumps over the barrels through the brush. Then hit the decoy in fight drives. Also a good high drive dog will do well!.But there has too be lot of defense in this dog to pass.What then?. I THINK IT JUST SCH..IS EASIER TO TITLE A DOG IN.IT'S WHAT THE BREEDERS & NEWBIE NO ABOUT THE MOST LIKE AKC .Theyv'e herd of it more than any other sport WHEN YOU THINK OF DOG TITLES. The effort is to hard in FR,ASR & KNVP is a SPORT for OFFICER's to test there Partners.IN AMERICA'S DOG WORLD THEY WANT AKC. LOOK AT ANIMAL PLANT, DISCOVERY,ESPN AKC IS THE SH-T. AND PAPERS DAMM ALL THAT TALK ABOUT UKC,FCI CKC. PEOPLE IN AMERICA ARE TOO CAUGHT UP IN LEGITIMACY OF THINGS. WHAT IS RIGHT! Hey Mike,Matt & Chris,VanCamp & every one. Give me a well trained dog or his off springs of any breed,That will do the work & save my life . NOW FLOOD THAT IN YA GENE POOL IF YOUR SMART . <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

NICO, Chenil, "bravo Chenil" UNTIL TOMORROW, MUFF

Ulysee,

I generally agree with what you're saying, but I think you're missing a few things. You seem to be interchanging the concept of a well trained dog with that of a well bred/genetically sound dog. Good/Great trainers can train lots of dogs to do lots of things, genetically sound or not.

Also Dogsports are Dogsports, if anyone is relying on a judge to tell them what kind of dog they have after a few trials, I feel sorry for you. I boils down to what individuals are willing and able to select, train, live with and breed. Training is 95% of what you do, trialing/testing is 5%. There are substandard dogs (and people) in all sports; KNPV, FR, MR, SCHH, ASR, PSA everything and if you don't believe me ask people involved in those venues. Last time I checked most of the GSDs titled in KNPV and FR were bred from SchH Trained and Titled dogs. Additionally, ASR and PSA have a wide variety of breeds competing, not all from KNPV and Belgian Ring lines.
A quick building search or area search is not exactly a killer test of a dogs scenting ability. I like the KNPV article search and SchH tracking (with the FH & FH2), and I think PSA is aiming for the KNPV type exercise in their high grass retrieve. Most of the others leave a whole lot to be desired in eval'ing scentwork and hunt drive. Heck, most LE that I know or have talked to think that the KNPV article search and SchH FH just start touching on eval'ing scent/hunt ability.

I'm not bashing or belittling anyone or any sport, they all have their strengths and weaknesses. I just think the whole 'my sport is better than yours' argument is pretty weak. Unfortunately, there is a huge political opposition in America to biting sports in general; and I feel we'd all be a lot better off if there was more mutual support, or at least, respect amongst those in the various sports. Let's face it, the VAST majority of dog owners and politicians in America couldn't care less about us, or sports, and most (or least) of all our biting dogs.

Ulysee,

I doubt that you are going to ever see PSA or ASR have much more than some regional popularity. Neither is very spectator friendly, and that is going to be a problem. It is tough to watch a building search from the outside. Having Spectators is important if you really want a Sport to survive. Even if you aren't charging for proplr to watch the trial, entry fees aren't going to support putting on a trial. The raffles and other things going on at most events are what make it economicly feasable to hold a trial, and that requires people other than just the competitors.

The other thing is that you can boast that the scenarios are more "real life", but real life changes. Trial for either of these sports don't. The result is that the trial can be trained for. That has always been the grip with SchH. Even in some of the other trials the variation is minimal. If that is the case the trial can be trained for and the dog can function in prey through the whole thing. The toughest test I have ever seen was the NAPD trials because they were different every time. It was impossible to train for them. Even at that it was possible for a dog to make it through a trial successfuly in prey only.

The idea that people get hung up on is that the dog can't tell the difference between training, a trial, and the real deal. I have seen dogs that fail in a trial handle a truely dangerously situation well, and make the bite they needed to. I have seen dogs that excelled in a trial fold in a real situation. Chest thumping for a type of trial doesn't serve any real purpose. It just demonstrates that you don't really understand the dogs. Most of the working P.D. dogs I have seen would fail miserably in most sport trials. Yet they function well on the street and regularly certify for their work.

A trial by nature is to try and identify the "best" dog there, so by nature they are concerned with trying to make a fine distinction between good dogs. That is also what makes them fun. As someone else pointed out, we need to support each other and identify that not everybody is intereted in doing the same thing. That support is were we will find some strength for our position that there is a legitimate place for what we like to do and the dogs that do them.

Richard, I don't think ASR is designed for huge crowds of spectators; it's not a dog show. It doesn't operate in clubs like Schutzhund, and was designed this way to prevent all the political bs, etc. And it's not a non-profit organization, they have a referral service. An ASR trainer learns the system, then teaches it to his clients.

John, the building search doesn't seem all that difficult, but it's a necessary task for police service dogs to learn. Who knows what all's involved, I've never seen it with my own eyes. And then there's searching for the helper in the woods. It's not about which system is more difficult, but which is more practical for the real world and these are practical lessons for the real world.

The guy who developed ASR had studied basiclly all the other dog sports, and then put together a system of his own that was more realistic. The way he describes ASR is as a practical protection system first, a foundation for security or police dogs second, and lastly a sport. Police K-9 handlers even comment that ASR is a more practical system for their dogs.

But back onto the subject...my first comment was in regards to how "sports" like ASR could help improve working breeds. When you have a more demanding test, your results are greater over the long haul. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out, or we would all settle for AKC obedience to determine which of our dogs were working quality.

Also, ASR is basiclly a new system. It's not going to gain all the credibility over night.