It is rather sad what is happening, although not to be unexpected. So many GSDs are out of showlines, not to mention the politics in Germany. The working crowd is clearly outnumbered.
More and more it comes down to who the judge is as he/she will have the most control over how the remaining tests are conducted. We have a few judges in the US, ( Bill Szentmiklosi comes to mind), that do insist that the dogs are really tested, even with the watered down rules. Unfortunately judges like Bill are also outnumbered.
Lately, I have witnessed several trials where I am certain an American-line GSD could have passed. "Pronounced" has taken on a whole new meaning! I don't see alot of difference between the German and the American show dogs . Looks-wise they are almost identical, except the German dogs still have that nice banana back. Temperament-wise,IMO, they are very similar.

Perhaps THAT is what this is all about. The SV preparing for all those American-line GSDs that will be trialing under the new AKC "working dog" program....yeah... that MUST be it! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Deanna-So the Sch1 still has it but IPO1 doesn't?
Can someone clear up if Sch rules are being replaced by IPO? Thanks

It is my understanding that YES, after January it will be all IPO.

The SchH rule I listed for comparison was only to show that they have similar frontal attacks on the dog. Did you read them both? If so, what are you upset about? am I missing something here?

Maybe I am missing something, or not reading right, but the attack out of the blind in SCH1 is not at all in IPO 1. In IPO 1 it is like the Sch 2 and 3, a re-attack in in the open, not from behind a blind and the helper charges out.

I do not see where that alone will be the downfall of the future of SchH. I guess that was my point. If there were NO frontal attacks on the dog, only run aways, then yes... I think there would be something to question.

Rules change. Fact of the matter is that the current rules are bent on occasion to suit the club anyway, so if people really are h#ll bent on breeding a crappy dog they can still do it.

Very good points, Deanna <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> .

I just think that the attack out of the blind is a good test. Its meant to surprise the dog and without that there is no surprise attack, except the back transport but everydog knows its coming. On the re-attack after the runaway the dog is already in drive, thus not making it to difficult of a test.
I don't know, I just don't approve of it. I just think that doing things like that, just gear the sport to crappy weaker dogs. The Sch title for breeding is overrated anyways these days as I'm sure many would agree. "Real" dogs are losing their place in the sport. Its sad to see.

Mike wrote: "Robert, do some research and you'll see that back in Stephanitz's time, there was attack under gunfire. Also, instead of the A-frame, the obstacle was vertical, and at 7ft 6inches. I'm sure there were others, but those alone are very important. Evidently, the vertical was taken out because it was causing dog's to become injured, but it was original and definately not something a weiner dog could do."


Hmmm. . .research. . .I think I've done some of that.

For you information, Attack Under Gunfire was really never part of SH. In fact the test was not fully standardized till just before the second world war. Other than the basic obedience routine and the tracking set, the protection phase had four standard parts. Not one of which is an attack under gunfire. A bark and hold, an object guard, a courage test, and physical search/handler protection.

Things like attack under gunfire were trial specific, or part of the PH and KrH. The early SH trials had a lot of influence from the Belgian Ring actually, and were run in regionally specific ways. . .of course always in a strict, logical, and very German regional way.

The wall climb was changed many times, and often based on what was available at trial. The straight wood climb wall was eliminated, as you said, to save the dog's body, but really it was used only a very short time in SchH. (the KrH and PH titles required the wall) Very smart move on the part of SchH, lots of great dogs saw their end because of that stupid wall. (you know, beings that SchH is a breeding test, not necessarilly a certification test) A perfect example is Frack von Polizeiprasindium Berlin, who was a field trial champion in 1909 and 1910. Max von Stephanitz said that the dog should have seen a hundred more breedings than he did, as the dog passed on the best working blood of Horand and Hektor von Schwaben. Frack broke his back jumping the wall in the rain.

Oh, and by the way. . .there was no Schutzhund 100 years ago. In fact I don't have an exact date that the SV standardized the SH segment of the breed test. The HGH was complete long before the SH or SchH was. It certainly wasn't 100 years ago though.


As Rene pointed out, we are very lucky to have your expert <read as goofy crap> opinions here on the board. . .so lucky in fact that I'm pained to think of what might happen if you never bothered to post again. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I would love to see the object guard test come back.... you would realy be able to see what the dog is capable of.

Well, as with anything, the Object Guard is a trained exercise. There are plenty of very happy prey monsters that do very well with correct training in the Ring sport Object Guards.

Not always the case, but it can be tought and trained for like any other task in a set sport trial.

We had a cute little guy with a very good object guard, he wasn't a dog I'd like to have with me in a dark alley.