Bill--

You're right--I certainly do NOT work for Ed Frawley. Nor have I ever owned a Leerburg dog. Nor does Ed, to the best of my knowledge, really have a formal dog-training PHILOSOPHY that he promulgates to the public. Answering training questions on his website is not the same thing as pushing a "philosophy" that people need to buy into.

But I'm glad the air has been cleared re The Dogmen--at least by you.

As to my own specifics: bought my GSD from a local hobby breeder. Trained him myself (he's been through SchH and a little sheepherding). There are some trainers I admire more than others--I will certainly admit to admiring Ed Frawley--but I don't subscribe to anyone's open-and-closed training "philosophy".

And I won't be shy here either--I think training immature dogs in defense is just plain NUTS. Through an acquaintance who is a PP trainer, I have seen the ugly results of dogs trained in this manner. Hectic, unstable, and totally unreliable.

Pete Felknor

These retorts and postings have been good and bad.

The bad is the negative commentary and accusations. I do not work for Dogmen, I'm not their agent. I have no hidden agenda. I know for myself what I have witnessed from multiple trainers. I known what I have seen for myself. I form my own opinions.

I want what is good for the dogs. Yes, I have a lot to learn. Don't we all.

Perhaps there will be good to come out of all of this. I hope so. For the sake of the dogs.

For myself, I will say this. I know of not one thing negative in reference to THE DOGMEN.

Like minded people will come together in these times. There are enemies of working and sport dogs out there. Watch "Law & order" tonight about a pit bull. I do not think there is any working breed owner out there that wants to lose their dogs. Think about your actions and words. WORDS HAVE POWER. We all are being observed. - Kent Iroler

Guys, guys. This happens on every Board, there will always be operatives w/their own agendas who have alot of free time and want to bait you into their goofy arguments. PETA does the same thing.
There is only one way to make them be quiet: ignore them. Stop getting sucked in. The one thing they won't be able to stand is being made irrelevant.
Just go on and discuss working dog issues and ignore the b.s.

If, as Kent says, "we are all being observed--gee, could there possibly be any better argument for NOT training immature dogs through defensive stress, or giving young or up-and-coming dog trainers the idea that this is responsible dog training?

Pete Felknor

I never meant that anyone actually WORKS for the Dogmen, only that they subscribe to the training philosophy that is trademarked by the Dogmen, and come here to preach, not learn. Catherine, you have partaken in your fair share of ridicule. You are not the victim here. Kent, the reason that you didn't get such a warm reception is that Catherine has already been haunting this board irritating people with her incessant preaching, then you came along and started saying the same things that have already been discussed ad nauseum. It's not that nobody here is open to learning anything new. Speaking for myself, that's why I am here. But when you have someone who CLAIMS that they are here to learn, yet never demonstrates that and only preaches about how wrong everyone else is and how much better their way is, then that doesn't show me someone who is learning. That person has avoided answering many, many direct and sincere questions whose purpose was to try and understand where she is coming from. For me to assume that she has little or no protection training experience and is getting her information from the Dogmen website and paraphrasing it here, is not an assumption. It is the truth.

Catherine, if you are *really* interested in learning, then you would stop stirring the pot constantly and your questions would be relevant, and when you get an honest answer, you wouldn't continue to harp away about it. That doesn't mean that you have to accept what you learn here as truth, but it does mean that your actions speak louder than your words. If you are here to learn, stop instigating the same old arguments again and again, that go nowhere.

Kent, you don't have to work for the Dogmen to be preaching their gospel. If you're going to preach someone's gospel, you need to do it in their church. To preach a Baptist sermon in a Jewish temple uninvited is just plain rude. I'm sure that you have some insights that could be helpful to some people. So why not just help when asked instead of preaching at everyone? Personally, I agree with much of what you say on some things, and I disagree with you on others. But I won't be preached at, and for you to expect everyone here to just happily accept being told just how wrong they are about everything they do, is, well, kind of dumb.

Joy, you are right. If everyone would simply ignore stupid posts instead of getting sucked in, then people wouldn't post stupid things. They might even go away.

I don't want to make any enemies here, but Kent, you're asking for respect that you just haven't earned yet, and Catherine, it seems to me that respect is something you expect to get without having to give.

Kent, Catherine, Bill,

You are the weakest link- Good-bye

Ok all sarcastic humor aside. Let's just agree to disagree. Bill, Catherine, Kent, you go ahead and train your way and the ones who disagree with you will train their way. This subject is getting really F'ing old. Give it up and move on, your not getting any new Dogmen recruits here. Quit beating a dead horse

The thing that has bothered me about these discussions is two fold.

First, people with little or no experience telling people that have been traing for years they don't know how to train dogs is foolish. If you haven't trained dogs both ways how do you know which is better? I hear the same thing over and over, "I never have trained that way and never will, but I know it isn't as good." I have trained both ways, still use defense to start some dogs, but it is under special circumstances. The place that it works is with older dogs that won't start another way. Is it the best way to do the training? No, it doesn't work as well, but it will work. Is it risky? Yes, there is a very narrow margin for error. It can destroy a dog in a hurry. If that is the way you want to train then do it. Don't tell me I am wrong when you haven't trained both ways and haven't worked with many dogs. At the recomendation of people from this board I have gone and looked at the Dogmen site. It is the same stuff being put out here with the idea that it is new or different. It isn't either. Much of what I saw there is risky at best. I didn't see any significant support for the method.

Every good trainer I know is willing to learn something new. Some are going to take longer about it than others, but all will learn. Few are willing to listen to a beginer tell them how to train dogs. Fewer still will be very polite about telling you were to go, though most will provide a map to get there. If you have the 20+ year background then you are in a position to describe and advocate a training method. If you have worked with one or 2 dogs you are not. There are way to many variables involved. To then come from a position of little or no experience and call experienced trainers idiots, arrogant, or any of the other names the experienced trainers have been called here is going to get your head handed to you.

I read books too. I take things that make sense to me from them. I have learned a lot of valuable information from some of them. I have seen some stupid stuff contained in many of them. Some of the worst stuff I would have never known how dumb it was if I hadn't trained dogs for as long as I have. Agree totaly with Ed, never. I wouldn't agree totally with anybody. I am not foolish enough to call him out on his own web site!! Ed and I have had some disagreements on techniques on this board. Is Ed wrong, no. Am I wrong, no. We just do somethings differently. He likes his method, I like mine.

Which brings me to the second thing that is bothering me in all this. Ed has taken on a thankless job with this board. He has taken a lot of abuse that is undeserved. Yeah he can get a little abrassive, so can I. I don't know of a dog trainer that doesn't. Get a thicker skin, don't take it personaly, or go elsewhere. Ed has been very free of his time and expertise and gotten a bunch of crap that he doesn't deserve as a result of it. Ed has gone way above and beyond what he needed to do for me. His concern is for the dogs, and feels no need to spare the people's feelings. I respect that, I admire that, I don't always agree with it. But it is his backyard, and I am not going to try to tell him how to manage it. If you don't like it, go elsewhere. There are lots of other places that will make you feel more "welcome". They may even agree with you.

This board will get a little rambunctious, there are too many people involved to maintain really good control. The world is a big place and it isn't always friendly. Some people hold strong opinions and aren't afraid to express them. Many people have been in bad situations and want to try and protect people from being in the same situation. I can accept that, some of the advice has been harsh, I haven't agreed with some of it and said so. If it comes up again I will say so again. There are questions I have had that I didn't post for that reason, but I got the answers I needed privately. Many people here have been very giving of their time and expertise when contacted. It is a great resource for people and those people have been very giving. I have been contacted privately and been able to provide assistance to some people.

So I guess all in all, if you are unhappy here feel free to leave. The rest of us are happy as clams.

What in the world was all that?

I am certainly no victim, nor do I expect any respect or take this personally.

I also have been contacted by people on this board who are afraid to pose a question because of the ridicule they see or the assumption that people new to training will simply believe what they read rather than doing some research. One reading it likened answers to simple questions as "throwing a piece of raw meat to a pack of hyenas".

Where are all these people who are afraid to ask questions? Let them speak for themselves and ask. If they don't ask, they won't learn. When I have a question, hell, I ask someone. I know what I know, and if I get stuck, ask. No one here attacks anyone for asking something. There are hundreds of questions asked here that have been answered with no attitude at all. It is only when people who have no idea of what they are speaking step up and tell people how it is. Or, pose questions without backing up any of their own ideas with proof of any kind.