No papers means just that.....the dog was not registered for some reason. So no AKC number, or SV number, etc. Very different from an untitled dog, of course.
You see this more often on Mals, most P.D.s' don't care about that unless they have a breeding program.
A non registered dog is shown as " a mixed breed" in USA trials, no matter what breed the dog is.
And both Todd and Allen make good points here. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

Originally posted by Allen Byrd:
but for people to only be concerned about titles is a joke in my opinion. i will also say that titles are a good help in evulating a dogs working ability but titles do not make up the total dog. for those that think so i feel that they have severe tunnel vision.

I totally agree with this. I beleive it takes one with many years experience to determine working ability in dogs. I also agree with Todd when he says "show me the dog". People need to look at the individual dog rather that who can put a title on a dog. I am not saying that the sport is a bad thing. It certainly shows what the dog can do, to an extent. But lets face it, the sport is going to shit! I see dogs on the field that do not deserve to be there, but they seem to get titled because there is too much slack in the rules now a days! The sport is not what it used to be years ago. In my book, a good breeder must know what traits to look for and must know how to recognize these traits and utilize them to better his/her breeding program.

IMO, titles are one of the least important things to consider when buying a pup. Titles to me, represent more of what the HANDLER can do vs. what the dog can do.

For example, I'm working now on my very first workable dog, so I'm at the novice level as far as training goes. This is an EXCELLENT pup but because of the lack of experience, it may be forever before I put a Sch 1 on him. On the other hand, I'm sure Bernhard Flinks could put a Sch 3 on him in no time. My pup is more advanced in drives than I am in training, in other words. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

There are a lot of excellent un-titled dogs out there with the right potential and in my opinion SHOULD be bred but will never be, as there are half-a( ))ed titled dogs who are bred all the time, and shouldn't be. In addition to that, a lot of breeders will try to convince you that they have a good stud dog because they have a Sch3 male with high scores. That couldn't be farther from the truth. A good stud dog is hard to come by, titles and points make up very little if no part at all of a good dog's profile. Good breeders don't breed for points, they breed for substance.

If I was looking for a pup and my heart was set on titles, I would look for a pedigree full of Ring sport titles(French Ring, Mondio Ring), or REAL street police dogs. IMO, Schutzhund has really softened up, where as the Ring sports are much more demanding on the dog. Your chances of getting a good pup from a Ring Sport background are far greater than a Schutzhund background.

Mike Sanchez

That couldn't be farther from the truth. You can sure tell who seen Eds tapes, we seem to paraphase him thats one of his favorite saying.

Mike/Howards ...
Any way I agree with everything that you are saying about titles not always being the best measure of a dogs true abilities.

I disagree with the Ring sport is better then SchH in all cases, when looking for for a solid dog. IMO based on finding here that because they are purely prey motivated theres a chance that their fight drive, has not been tested. A good SchH 3 or Ring sport dog can be a mean SOB.

I agree any of the sports, if the dog is choosen by watching him work rather then reading his credo's, will give you a better candidate to build from, then a dog with no training or a fluffed title. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Also, things people need to remember is genetics is a funny thing. I will use my own dogs as an example. Dar is an excellent producer. He has a SchH2 and will get his 3 this summer. I show his brother Dax as IPO3, SchH2, ZVV1, ZPS1, and his brother Dyk as IPO3, SchH2. So clearly all the dogs are great workers. However, because of genetics Dax or Dyk for that matter might not produce as well as Dar.

So there is more to it, than the dog working and his pedigree. Can the dog reproduce himself? The same could be said for bitches.

Actually, in Ring Sport, the dogs DO work in fight drive, as well as prey. The decoys(wearing full body suits)often present more stick hits, and are allowed to use more threatening gestures. The dogs also bite under gunfire at one point, as well as do face attacks. In Ring Sport, the job of the decoy is to find weaknesses, and steal points from the dog. In Schutzhund, the decoys job is completely the opposite, to try to make the dog LOOK good. Here, the dogs really see the decoy as a fighting partner, and not just a tug buddy. With that said, I am indeed a fan of Schutzhund. However, if a Ring sport club was as easy to find as a Schutzhund club, I wouldn't be doing Schutzhund. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I'm convinced that Ring sport or Police Dog trials are a more realistic and truer test of a dog's drives, character, nerve, soundness, and workability.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Mike Sanchez:
Actually, in Ring Sport, the dogs DO work in fight drive, as well as prey. The decoys(wearing full body suits)often present more stick hits, and are allowed to use more threatening gestures. The dogs also bite under gunfire at one point, as well as do face attacks. In Ring Sport, the job of the decoy is to find weaknesses, and steal points from the dog.

More misconceptions between sport and reality. Starting from the bottom up, Ring SPORT is just that, a sport and it depends on how you train and how the decoy is at trial. Under gunfire and more, even harder stick hits, so what? You can take a dog and condition it to it, if the dog is halfway decent, you can condition it to getting kicked in the ass and not letting go. Yet the dog still might not be a great dog, although it scores a lot of points in trials. Bite suits have nothing to do with it either, that's just protection for the decoy and the dog has been taught that it's ok to bite anywhere. I'm sorry, but I've seen a few examples of French Ring dogs that were nothing but prey monsters.

Basically to get to the point, it's not the protection sport that matters so much, but rather how the dog was trained and how good the dog is on it's own.

As far as the main topic about titles, well, I've got a couple of different examples here in front of me now....

One is a total nut for protection work, tries to kill a decoy any chance she gets, is a very good dog in OB, and a decent tracker; neither parent was titled.

One is a phenominal tracker, she is a very fast bitch (almost like a Mal in a GSD suit), and is almost "over-driven"; her sire was SchH2 AD CGC CDX, her dam is untitled, same mother as above.

The last bitch is very in tune with her handler (me), very ball & prey oriented, and has great nerves...will be working her in formal protection this fall to get a better feel for her on that end; her sire was SchH3 IPO3 FH1, was in the BSP from '92-95 (V twice), in the WUSV Weltmeisterschaft (V); her dam was untitled.

Our male is a tough SOB in almost every sense of the word, very hard in protection, great tracker, decent OB, a little handler soft; his sire is SchH3 DPO2 WPO FH2 and his dam is ZVV1.

I would not say that any one stands out as being leaps and bounds greater than the others, they all have their strengths and weaknesses, but they are all almost on an even playing field. But for sport, I'd put our male and the first bitch listed as the two I would consider more than capable dogs (even high level competition in the right hands); they just bring a little bit more intensity and force to the protection work.

Originally posted by Mike Sanchez:
Actually, in Ring Sport, the dogs DO work in fight drive, as well as prey. Sorry Mike, bearer of bad news. Wrongo

Ring, the real thing is all sport and prey based to achieve the results. Sure there are hard dogs playing but it is all in prey.

Jerry

There are too many opinions, and too many dogs to judge for anyone to answer those questions. Mine are based on what I've been around. The bottom line is, and back to the original question, titles and high scores are one of the least important things to consider when buying a pup.