BTW... the original PSD ingested drugs while on duty and was going to die of cancer from the ingestion. He wasn't dying while he was attached to the bitch ... That's why the officer went ahead and bred him, he wanted some of his offspring before he died.

Don't worry, I'm not planning on breeding hundreds of pups from him. I now have one small (5) 6 week old litter and that's all I plan to breed from him. And I don't expect to receive top dollar for them.

I just asked the question to see how important the papers are with you all and why. I've received some great answers so far and really appreciate it!

The other dog I was asking about is dog aggressive and has papers and I was wondering if dog aggression would be passed on to his offspring if he was bred. Is it absolutely forbidden for a dog aggressive stud to be bred?

LOL... one thing I never thought of is even if the flaw isn't passed on, would he even hook up with her? Or would he just kill her?

Alan Bliven quote:
"Isn't it true Ed's dogs are not shown in SchH and don't compete in any sport?"

Ya know, Alan, all you have to do is look under stud dogs on this website for your answer. Since you won't bother to do so, let me help you out.

Ummm...Ed's stud dog Aiko, SchH III *nine* times.

Xando Hip x ray OFA good, elbows clear. The dog was owned by someone else, now that Ed owns him, he's being shown by Cindy , so expect the titles soon. Many of us have seen the dog worked at Ed's seminars ( you can see pictures of the dog being worked on this website ) multiple times, the dog will be a high point dog.

Maybe SchH isn't your thing. Ok, but ultimately you're breeding puppies that can't be papered from an untitled, underage, unpapered stud. And you didn't even mention about the hip xrays, so I'm just going to assume that you didn't bother with those, either. :rolleyes:
The value of the puppies that you bred are zero. Basically, all you have done is contribute to the pet over-population problem.

Sorry, 99.9% of posters here would disagree with your poorly informed choice. We hear a lot from pet owners saying "well, *I* think my dog is good, so I'm just gonna breed him - they can't verbalize how the dog is good or will contribute to the improvement of the breed however. In your situation, neither can you.

What part of backyard breeder didn't I make clear? :rolleyes:

Alan said

"Lee, In all honesty I've never seen shelters offering free GSD's from genuine hard nosed dual purpose PSD lines."

Unfortunately not quite true. Well-bred, working line dogs DO turn up in our city shelter. And our psd handlers, do evaluated them.

Sometimes they come in with tags, or are recognized in the location they're picked up. Some, like my very beautiful, well bred, high-drive bitch are forfeited to the shelter and we can find out exactly where they came from. I've seen two very well bred, awesome working line gsds come though in the las 6 months.

Also unfortunate, but high drive dogs are hard to place. Like Lee says, there aren't so many homes for them in the first place. And the age they get surrendered or picked up, they often have baggage, or are geared heathens.

So then they are really hard to place. In our area, that means if a verifiable working home can't be found for them, they never get a chance to leave the shelter.

No matter what the buyers promise, they don't all make it back to the breeder when life changes take their toll. Because you don't see them offered for adoption doesn't mean they aren't there.

Good luck with YOUR pups. Keep up with the buyers and be choosy as hell about where you place them.

However.....can a dog be OFA'd without papers? Yup. My PH1 bitch is OFA good, elbows clear. As is the PH1 I use as a stud dog. There is an identification clause, not a 'registration' clause. Tattoos and microchips are fine.

OFA doesn't care if the dog is 'registered', just that the xrays belong to the dog in question.

I'm sorry, I didn't think Ed went out and participated in SchH.

Where'd you get the idea he is "underaged?" Is five years old an under aged dog?

You didn't ask why I think my dog is good?

I am not here lobbying for Axel as a stud dog. I just wanted some opinions and ran into some harsh rude critics. I'm sorry I even participated now.

Let me give you a little history of Axel. He was the best dog of Iron Dog Kennels a legit PSD kennel. BTW.. SchH are not PSD's, they are only sport dogs that may or may not even be genuine protection dogs. Biting a sleeve is not protection.

Anyway, the only reason I got Axel is because the owner has gotten out of breeding GSD's and is now doing Mals for breeding.

The owner does no SchH, he mainly supplies Police Departments with imported 2 year old fully trained adults for dual purpose work. He keeps them for a few months and refines their training and them sells them as PSD's. He used to breed some and sell them as protection dogs or family pets but has gotten out of that and that's how I got Axel.

Axel was his personal protection dog and house dog and was always the one he used for demos of what a good dog can do. Out of all the dogs that came through his kennel, Axel is the one he kept for himself. If he didn't hold him back he would most likely now be an active PSD. They don't care about papers.

There is no fault in Axel with the exception of having no papers. He has great defense and fight drive, great nerves and temperament. He don't need a sleeve to bite. He has a huge neck and head, very intelligent. Was trained in drug detection and tracking. He's very obedient and eager. He's seen many service dogs but rarely any like Axel.

Now maybe to you he's just a no good mutt because he don't have a long line of numbers and titles behind his name but that don't make it so. I'm not asking anyone to breed their dogs to him, that's not my point here.

But you are right, no matter how good of a dog he is, he will not make a stud dog because of having no papers. Not because he wouldn't sire great dogs but because "people" require it and they are the ones buying the puppies.

But, if there is going to be GSD's in back yards for pets or guard dogs wouldn't they be better if they were from Axel than someone else? Very few people are going to pay 1000-2000.00 for a puppy, regardless of how many papers or titles they have. Most common people want a free dog <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> They don't even want to pay 500.00 Let alone 1000-2000.00.

I pay it and plan to get some someday from Ed but I can't say it's such a terrible crime for Axel to put five more GSD's in Tucson back yards without papers. As I said, I have no further plans to breed him.

Alan,
Sorry, I was confusing your recent thread about your 18 month old with this dog, apparently - my mistake.

Yes, I can see that the owner of Iron Dog kennels is breeding Mals now. Interesting, in the kennel owners own words " I will not be attempting to register this litter with the AKC due to the difficulty AKC imposes on the registration of foreign dogs and their respective litters." So the parents are papered in other countries, but not titled. They are apparently "patrol trained', but there's no indication that they're actively being used by a department ( usually, if a dog is being used so, it's indicated as such on a website - after all, that's a selling point, no?). And there's no indication that they've achieved USPCA certification. And lastly.... there is no chance of the puppies ever being papered

So he's selling un-paperable Mal puppies for $1000, and although he talks about providing dogs mainly to PD's, there is no indication that he has any dog suitable for sale that any department would consider.
Who is going to buy an over-priced mixed breed puppy when they can get a green Mal ( sometimes, but not always, papered. if not papered, they're considered mixed breeds also ) at 18 months for $1800 to $2400 that can be returned if the dog doesn't pass training?
No department that I know of would ever consider it.

He also has several adult dogs for sale, none of whom have papers, none of whom appear to be PSD candidates.


I am quite aware that SchH dogs are not PSD's, I have a fair amount of real world experience with both.
After having been a K-9 handler for seven years, I'm well aware of what real protection involves. And as a vendor, I know what departments want and don't want - I deal with it nearly everyday.

Lastly, sorry if you took my comments as rudeness. I'm not being rude, I'm being truthful - which some people don't like. Oh well... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

And no, 5 puppies aren't a crime - just like everybody backyard breeder thinks "oh, it's only one litter". And the fact that you're asking about if your 18 month male is breeding quality pretty much answers where you fit in the backyard breeders world. :rolleyes:

Will,

Your impression if Iron Dog Kennels is way off. I guess because we only targeted it to the general public and not the main part of the kennel's business which is importing and refining 2 year olds as future PSD's.

The adult dogs listed for sale are PSD wash outs to be sold only as pets or potential protection dogs. Notice the price... 400-600. The others are sold for 5000.

Plus you said none of them have papers but all of them have papers but one.

The adult Mal's are trained as dual purpose patrol dogs and one is now active on the job with the kennel owner. He got his first bite the other day and ripped up the assailants arm. I'd hate to have one of these dogs coming at me without protection

You have a good point, it would be a shame if it didn't get worked out with the Mal's papers because about the only way to sell them is to for sport. Americans for the most part don't raise and train pups for service work. I', glad you pointed that out. I was thinking of getting one of those.

I regret saying anything about rudeness, I'm a big boy and if you are on forums people tend to be that way. But when you meet them in person they are as sweet as apple pie, I wonder why that is?

Yes, I guess I am just a back yard breeder with one litter of 5 and I do sincerely appreciate Your Highness coming down to my level and answering my questions <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Lee,

Yes, I understand now and thanks for straightening me out. I won't breed him anymore and I am headed to the pool as we speak to drown these pups.