Quote:

Robert,
If people are looking mostly for a pet and have don't have much work requirements, that's what I suggest. A club level dog would be more than most people in his situation would need or what, especially as a GSD novice who may or may not do SchH. I'd send my clients to AKC obedience breeders that specialized in obedience dogs ( not that pet level GSD people even say "boo" to me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> ).

Recommending a Working Lines dog, even a calm one, could end up making a novice GSD owner unhappy. If the new owner decides that SchH or another sport is too much work ( and let's be honest here - the drop out rate for new SchH trainers is very high when they see the time commitment involved ) the dog is not going to get the level of exercise or work that it needs, and it will not be a good situation for all.

I'm trying to be realistic for what is best for this potential owner and dog with the information that he's given us.
Hey, I'd like to see everyone with a Working Lines GSD ( since I work and breed them, of course ) but different dogs for different owners and requirements - that's the truth of the matter when dealing with various clients.

The reality of it is though, is that training makes all of the difference in the world. You can take a serious working-line dog, and train him to respect the house, usually with all of the beneficial aspects left intact. IE: good health, good hips, high intelligence, ambition, and a strong desire to protect the home and family.

If this was not the case with working-line dogs, than there would be no need for training.

Sorry, I disagree there - you can't train drives *out* of a dog and expect him to work at the high upper levels. Often you have a choice of great manners or a dog that's great on the field - one that is both is rare.
Very few upper level National type dogs are full-time house dogs with great manners. Most of the ones that I've seen are kennel/ crate dogs ( and I've eaten over the house of USA National champs past and present plenty of times )

"The reality of it is though, is that training makes all of the difference in the world. You can take a serious working-line dog, and train him to respect the house, usually with all of the beneficial aspects left intact. IE: good health, good hips, high intelligence, ambition, and a strong desire to protect the home and family."

Maybe retired and older, depends on lines, your definition of drives and what level you are talking about in terms of competing.

There are a LOT of people breeding pets, obedience dogs, and nice house dogs from working lines here in the US. (Most aren't even trying to do so, but do it very well. LOL)

In fact that's what I see more often than a working line breeder who breeds dogs that would make people unhappy due to drive and/or energy levels.

It doesn't take much more effort to raise a well selected working line dog to be a house pet than it does any large energetic breed of dog. And you have the added benefits of sound minds, sound bodies, and drive to use for training and some working. (like bloodtrailing game, obedience, and playing at SchH)


He doesn't want Fetz or Emma, and one would hope that a good breeder won't sell him something like that. But I've seen a ton of pups and young working bred dogs who would fit the bill AND blow his mind in their ability to track, learn, and adapt to a home life.



I will never in a million years refer anyone to an American bloodline dog. They have too many bad things bred into them and good things bred out of them. So we'll have to agree to disagree there. Maybe you know an American showline breeder or two that don't totally suck donkey azz, but I've yet to meet one.


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I agree, you can get a working line dog that can live in the house. Have had one or two. But, none of husband's live in the house - they do come in and spend time with us (except for the wild Fannie). But, he works with them each day as well....

People do have different ideas of drives.

I'm with Robert all the way. A friend of mine had close to the same requirements (minus the deer). She got a German working line, but asked for the most laid back male in the litter. He still has a great nose, lots of prey and food drive, but he's not the devil incarnate.

Will. Could you at least TRY to give Steve a LITTLE credit? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> As long as he knows what he's getting himself into and is willing to do the work, he should be okay with a medium drive, working line GSD.

Steve. Don't think that you can let this pup outside to entertain himself in the backyard and expect this to keep him calm in the house. We are talking a MINIMUM of 2 15 minute walks per day in addition to several short traning sessions per day to keep this pup happy. If you are providing him with enough exercise and mental stimulation, he should be fine in the house.

A good breeder will be able to pick the right pup for you. There's a huge difference between wanting a national level dog and wanting to get involved in Schutzhund and perhaps get a SchH 1 on your dog. Make sure the breeder knows EXACTLY what you want. A good breeder will even tell you "I don't think the pup you want is in this litter. Why don't we wait for the next litter."

I think a working dog would be fine as long as you are consistant with the rules in the house and fair. My dog is fine in the house and he has a ton of drive.....but I did start him in the house. I would suggest keeping him kenneled when no one is there for his/her first few years though. Another example is Debbie Zappia....her dog Esco is in the house alot and he is well mannered and a national champion.....and Esco was not her dog as a puppy. She got him as an adult.
So I think it is possible to have both...It will just take some work...be firm, fair and consistant.
I would also NEVER suggest the ASS or even German showlines.
Working line is the way to go.

My dog is more or less a medium drive dog, as he's getting older (13 months now) he's mellowed out alot during the day, he'll hang out, watch TV, play with me when I get him riled up, then right around 7.30 he gets bit by the hyper bug. This is his best walk/play/training time, if I ignore him while I'm doing work he'll do anything to get my attention, steal things he knows he's not allowed to have, tug on bed sheets, bark at me, look at me, then when I look at him he'll run away wanting me to chase him. There is definately a lifestyle adjustment that goes with a dog that has drive, especially if you have children in the house, my dog is awesome with kids, but if my friends kids have their toy animals or a blanky or something, my dog will try to steal it which can sometimes cause chaos with impatient or tired kids who don't understand why they shouldn't wave it around in front of the dogs nose.

If you put in the effort to keep your dog from getting bored, I don't see why they would be bouncing off the walls all day, especially as they get older. My own dog is a west german showline dog, I know everyone says keep away from them, but I wouldn't trade my dog for anything, he has enough drive to at least "play" schutzhund, if he earns a title then yay, if not, no biggie I'm not looking to win competitions, but I don't see why you wouldn't be happy with a medium drive working line GSD for the things you described. You may even get lucky with a showline GSD, but you should probably be looking at working lines if you want better odds of finding the right dog.