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This is a test in ASR for the Entry level - if a dog won't go civil on a decoy just wearing civilian clothes with no equipment, the trial's over for them.

Yes, I'm stupid. What is ASR?

Will, don't you have a breeding program? Maybe I've got you mixed up with someone else, but I thought you did.

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What is ASR?

American Street Ring! http://www.americanstreetring.org (I THINK that is the correct URL)

For me it is all down to the dog itself, not so much the training (not saying that training plays no part.)

You can get a dog who has been trained on a very visible sleeve for years.. that will bite for real in a jiffy.. in the same sense that you can get a dog who has been trained on a "convincing" hidden suit or sleeve all of it's life.. yet will never bite for real.

Genetics baby! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Kristen asks the million dollar question:
"Exactly how are PPDs trained so that they will not hesitate to react to someone not wearing a sleeve or presenting their arm or whatever?"

Well, this is partially training, but most of it is temperament. And from my experience, about five to eight percent of GSD's have the temperament to go civil and be able to provide real world protection.

And I see *a lot* of high priced ppd's being sold by so called "protection trainers" that would never pass any serious temperament test of protective/ civil traits.
I'm starting to think that the majority of "protection trainers" either totally lack the experience to even recognize civil behavior, or else they know that they're simply selling dogs that can't do the work and they hope that the unsuspecting potential buyers haven't a clue about what to look for or how to genuinely test a potential ppd - basically they're scamming folks. There are some big names in the dog world that fit into this category.

Let the buyer beware - research and study the subject before you make a $10,000 mistake. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />


Yes, I have a breeding program and I currently have 10 week old pups on the ground now, but I don't know how they'll ultimately end up - they may be "dogs-o-death" like Fetz ( one male sure seems to be *just* like dad....for better or worse <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> ) and they did great with the Flinks puppy testing, but you really never know how breeding end up until the two year old mark. For me, the end result is how many of the litter are active duty police dogs and working sport or ppd's - I don't raise dogs to be pets and I don't sell them to pet homes, needless to say.
So as the puppies slowly get sold, I'll have my answer down the line. I think that I'm experienced enough to see which of the remaining puppies may end up a serious customer, and which of them could be ppd's and live in a house without making the new owner sell all of their possessions and live on furniture made only of concrete...

ASR ( American Street Ring ) is a reality based sport that is based on protection in real-world scenario's. It'd be worth your time to watch a trial if you ever get a chance, it's a real eye-opener! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Kristen,
It'll be to your advantage ( and most other potential ppd owners ) to learn which organizations are valid in the dog world and which are fairly meaningless.

Personally, I always find that mentioning membership in the APDT and the such to be suspect, because those are basically useless orgainizations of pet trainers that have no other credentials to speak of. It helps to learn what titles and qualifications mean something, and which ones are useless fluff.

I'd hope that a ppd trainer would have titled several dogs with SchH USA or DVG. If I see them mentioning fly-by-night organizations like SDA, I'd beware.

For example, check out the site that you listed, Panzer K9. Go under "who we are", and check out the "Titles Placed on Trained Canines". With those qualifications, that's basically a glorified pet trainer in most people's view. Definately not someone to be training your future ppd. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Will, have I ever told you how much I appreciate you?

Should I just contact the Asheville Schutzhund Club and tell them what I'm looking for and see if they can point me in the right direction? Or do they just deal with Schutzhund dogs only?

Hi Kristen,

I've read this thread with interest, and you've received some solid advice.

First, you need to arm-wrestle the hubby over what breed you want <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Are 'papers' important to you?

Second, you really need to decide what you need from the dog. Is the dog to be with the family...going to live outside...what do you need the dog to be able to do?

Third, do you want to train the dog, or do you want one that is pretty much ready to go 'out of the box'? If you want to be involved in the training, do you have access to someone who KNOWS what the heck they're doing?

Fourth, how much are you REALLY able to spend? While a fully trained dog is not going to be 'cheap', it should not cost more than a new car either! For instance, we have a fully protection trained Mal that is social in 'non-working' situations that would probably go in the 2500-3000 range if sold, but then, we don't make a living selling dogs either. A GOOD protection trained GSD will be more $$ simply because they are harder to find these days than a good mal.

Just some things to think about. Talking to the folks at the Sch club would be a good way to start. I do know some folks in your area that are the real deal when it comes to training protection-type dogs. Will's partner is one of the best trainers in the country, as well. Might be worth a road trip for you.

Feel free to PM me if you'd like the info on the folks in NC. They're not personal friends of mine, but I've seen first hand the dogs they can produce.

I posted in another thread exactly what I want in a dog. It's in the General Forum I think and it's titled "What about lines for MY situation?" if you want to go there to answer some of the questions you've asked me here, and then get back to me. In a nutshell, I want a dog that can be a house dog, go hiking and backpacking with us, and be able to actually protect us if need be - not just a dog that will bite a protection sleeve in schutzhund, and not a dog that will have to be kept outside or kenneled all the time because it will destroy the house or kill the cat(s).