Lots of good advice here. I would consider all of the options given; all the ideas here will likely give you some success.
Get back to basics. Some people try too soon go get off leash. I used to be that way. It's worth the wait to get full control while the dog is on the leash. I think the transition from going on to off-lead is where some people make a lot of mistakes. As someone suggested, don't go from full on leash control to...ok..Take the leash off, let’s go! Leave the leash on, just don't hold it. Let the dog drag the leash around and get used to that before you take it off completely. Personally there are a lot of little things I would do in-between those 2 steps but for the sake of brevity, I won't explain it all, but you get the idea.
I love my ecollar, though he wears he frequently, it's very rarely used. Before you go spend a few hundred dollars on an ecollar, have you thought about using throw chains? This might seem a little old school to some but, it helped me a lot with off leash problems. Mostly used with the recall under distraction. And NO! You don't have to peg the dog with the chains and hurt the dog to be effective. Shortly, the dog only needs to hear the jingle of the chain and you don't have to throw it. Then the jingle gets phased out. You can 3-4 link chains at your local Home Depot or any other hardware store for less than a dollar. I started with about 20-3 link sets, kept them all around the house in different places so they were always handy. Start in the house, then graduate to outside. I'd even clip the leash on the dog in the house a few times a day, not go out, and take it off after a few minutes.
Desensitize the dog to the leash and his collars that will solve a few problems.
Aside from all this, I've found, think about your goals, be creative and do whatever works for you and your dog to attain those results. I had a really hard time getting my dog to stand, then stand from a distance. It was driving me nuts, I read all kinds of articles and got lots of advice from people, the one guy said to me; you want your dog to stand, teach him to stand! That's just what I did. So now anytime I want to train something new, before I read anything or talk to anyone, I set a goal and work on it.
If you accomplish your goal, it doesn't matter if you did it with a book, treats or voodoo, as long as it works for you and your dog.

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If you accomplish your goal, it doesn't matter if you did it with a book, treats or voodoo, as long as it works for you and your dog.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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Did the health problems keep him from being trained in general obedience -- I mean with just the leash and the leather collar? Or was the prong collar his first training tool?

In the house or on your own property, does he respond to your commands off-lead? Is it only out in the neighborhood/fields that the submission falters?

OK, as for the health problems. Yes it did. Not phsycally etc but due to the fact if I put "x" amount of hours and time training to only have the problem worsen over time then having to bring him back to the breeder to trade for another. It would be a total waste of time. So once it started to clear up, I switched my methods. He had to catch up to a suitable level for his age. He progressed quickly and without problem.

As for the prong collar, etc. Not really an issue I don't believe.

In my house he ALWAYS responds normally. I can drop ground beef on the floor and put him in a sit or a down and he'll wait until I say ok.... In the house he is fine...

its only in the neighborhood. In the fields a few miles away he is AWESOME. I drive and he runs. Its that simple. If I turn the SUV this way he is turning around to keep up.

He's fine in the field. Now when it comes to taking a dump outside as there is no fence he'll walk his rear-end right on down the street and ignore.....

That's it. In the field he works and runs good. out to go pooper he flakes out and ignores....

everybody else. I appreciate this.

This is what I did. I let the leash go and he thought he was free. I told him to come and started to ignore but the 20ft loose lead got caught on his leg (not harshly, but he felt it and he stopped ignoring and came back like normal. Listened like normal, etc.

the thing is to trick him. He KNOWS its on. So I let the 20ft lead down and he walked up to the door and then looked. I told him to "eesay" ( come).. he ignored and walked the opposite way then I snagged that leash. Well, I jumped on it and it snagged his jerky butt. Then he sort of freaked and ear laid back he ran up right to the dorr and waited for me to let him in....

If I would have had the pinch collar on him it would have been better reinforcement.

but I normaly never have a collalr on him so maybe from now on, I'll keep it on to prevent desensitization of nothingness on the neck. With some form of collar etc and then prong collar he is used to collars on him.

I take him to the bathrooom with a prong b/c barking at the neighbor or maintenance guy isn't cool at all.

So I "check" him and he stops.....

So I think I need to follow what you guys say with a touch of my own stuff and hopefuly he should be fine.

Basically, let the leash down after I put him in a down etc, and then let him walk a bit and call him into command. If he doesn't, jank the leash wish the pinch on him...


In other words repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition. eventually he'll get it right?

That;'s the plan....

Correct me if I am an "over-enthusiastic corrector." Rather than reel a dog in with a series of tug-release, I prefer to take up a little of the slack while the dog is walking away, give a verbal cue "no" then let out the slack. The dog will hit the end of the leash and recieve a correction the is exatly relative to speed and determination of the undesired behavior. The correction gives a milisecond of attention to call the dog to come and take up a little more leash. If the dog doesn't come, it will hit the end of the leash in the same way - but it will effectively be "reeled in a little ways"

I just prefer this because the leash is correcting the dog "passively" meaning to me - that the dog has the choice whether or not to go to the end - rather than the handler shortening the leash in a "tug" or "check" as the dog is soing something wrong.

I use what I call "passive" correction in correcting bolting and inattentive behaiors, and to get a basic heel. I use what I call "active" correction for insolent naughtiness and fine tuning a heel - where "passive" correction is far too clumsy.

Coreect me if I do this wrong.

Actually what you described is pretty much the same as what I described, but with 'my method,' the dog has no option other than to keep coming towards you after you've given the come command. With 'my method,' the dog learns he better come quick when he hears the come command to avoid those tugs.

With 'your method,' though it will work, what you're basically doing is drawing the whole process out. What I understood you to say is to allow the dog to get out so far, then issue the come command and allow the dog to hit the end of the leash, but then you don't say anything about how you actually get the dog to come to you. Or maybe you did and I just didn't understand?

Either way, both of our concepts are the same.

It's a warning before the correction, so I can move to offleash work quickly. The dog will very quickly learn that when I say "AH" (I use instead of no) it is about to recieve a correction. So when I heel offleash for example and the dog starts to go ahead by a couple inches I say "Ah" and the dog falls back into pace.

It functions as the warning tone on an ecollar - a warning.

As far as what I was describing "come"
I warn with "Ah" the dog a)will come towards me and recive praise or b) recieve correction, and be told "come"

So what I was writing before is worst case scenario, if the dog continues to choose to ignore the warning and the command, how to still get it to come.

The only difference between this and tug-release is adding the element of choice by a warning before the correction or tug. You are right, both the same, just one with a warning and one without. I think the warning helps with moving to offleash work, but it may just depend on the dog also.

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As far as what I was describing "come"
I warn with "Ah" the dog a)will come towards me and recive praise or b) recieve correction, and be told "come"

I'm still confused.

So you just say "Ah" and the dog is supposed to come to you, and if he doesn't, THEN you tell him to come?

I'm not explaining myself well. *sigh*

I was going from the point of the dog being on the long lead and already having ignored the command "come."

I guess I never bothered to mention that <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Sorry.