Kristen,
Are these books?

No, they're current training concepts that are popular with the "no force" folks, and some aspects of them are useful with certain behavioral quirks.
They're most useful for trainers that lack the size/ strength/ speed/ or presence to establish dominance in the more convential ways.
However, I do believe that the value of these programs is overblown. that's just my opinion, others think it's the best thing since sliced bread. Time will tell.

The “No Free Lunch” Principle is described here, if anyone is interested: http://www.ahshc.org/Behavior/bhv_nofreelunch.asp

 Quote:

They're most useful for trainers that lack the size/ strength/ speed/ or presence to establish dominance in the more convential ways.

However, I do believe that the value of these programs is overblown. that's just my opinion, others think it's the best thing since sliced bread. Time will tell.

Will, what "more conventional ways" are you referring to here?

In my experience, when done correctly, either of these programs works very well. Of course, if YOU are the only one doing it, and everyone else in your family allows the dog on the furniture, or to beg at the table, or whatever, then it isn't going to work. But in my experience, and the experience of others who've tried it, NILIF works very well to convey to your dog that YOU are the boss, without having to get physical. Having this 'foundation' also makes actual training easier, because as I said before, the dog actually respects you and wants to make you happy.


I think I portray myself as being 'in charge' towards other dogs anyway, though, because even when I go over to friends' and family's houses, their dogs immediately show respect to me while running all over top of their owners. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> It's kind of funny because the people usually look at me in disbelief as their dog decides not to jump up on me, doesn't beg at MY feet during mealtime (while still begging at theirs), and even moves off the couch when I go to sit down. LOL!

Quoting Kristen: I think I portray myself as being 'in charge' towards other dogs anyway END

I believe this 100%. I've had this experience, and I've seen others to whom dogs gravitate as if hearing a dog whistle. Calm/assertive pack-leader-types draw dogs to them, reinforcing (as if it needed reinforcing) that dogs want to be with a pack leader -- they may love other people, but it's the person they respect who they trust to lead them.

"Will, what "more conventional ways" are you referring to here?"

Ummm...just standard dog training, for instance? I see those programs as a whole lot of extra work that could be done both faster and more efficiently with other forms of training. However, the use of compulsion is distasteful to some trainers and they try virtually any other form of training in hopes of avoiding the need to correct their dogs.


And ultimately...this is bribing/ rewarding good behavior and hoping to diminish bad behavior ( I can see why the clicker crowd likes this form of training, the concept is similar ). However......if something fires the dog off and it goes into high drive and can't be distracted, where are you with this form of training? If all of the dogs "respect" is focused on receiving or not getting rewards, he has not learned the degree of what is ultimately submission to you ( no matter what else we call it, it comes down to that ) that will be required under heavy distraction.

This training falls into the "I hope this works out" form of training that I so often see with the no force/ clicker/ purely positive training crowd all use. And in a low drive pet in which you can control the environment, it works ok. With high drive dogs ( the usual problem dogs ) it does not work very well. Yes, there are a ton of clicker trained dogs running through Agility trials and doing great at the work, I see them all the time. But I also see that the basic every day control of those very dogs tends not to be very good under any type of real distraction. If the dog's drive overcomes it's desire for a reward, the clicker trainers are at a loss of what to do.
And I have seen first hand with my own eyes some of the top level trainers that advocate the above systems ( including the No free Lunch" ) getting their dogs ready for a competition or such - and using compulsion via prong collars and e collars. So the guru's themselves resort to compulsion ( to a degree ) when they need perfect performance. And I've seen that happen more than a few times.

Sorry, overall I think this training is more for the trainer than the dog. But it might be helpful with low drive dogs ( who unfortunately aren't the problems dogs as I've pointed out before ) and it will help some trainers go to sleep at night and feel better about themselves. *shrug*
Just my opinion at this time. If I see this form of training used with difficult, high drive aggressive dogs and succeed, I'll change my mind. But I'm not holding my breath..

Will, maybe you're confused as to exactly what NILIF is about. It has nothing to do with training, really. The most the dog needs to know how to do really, is sit. The whole concept is to make the dog understand, without having to use force, that the owner controls all aspects of his life. With NILIF, the dog must obey a command (usually sit) before he gets anything, be it petting, a treat, his dinner, etc. It doesn't train him to do anything except look to his owner for 'permission' if you will. With NILIF, the dog learns to let his owner go through doorways, down stairs, down narrow hallways first, rather than trying to blast past and get in front. With NILIF, you eat first, then feed the dog (making him obey a command first - if he doesn't obey, he doesn't eat). With NILIF, the dog is not allowed on the furniture, because the alpha is the one that gets the best places to sit and sleep. If you choose to allow the dog to have furniture priveleges later, that's fine, but he still must 'ask permission' before being allowed up, and he must ONLY get on the furniture after being told he can (ie: he learns a command that means 'you can get on the couch until such time that I tell you to get off again, and you may not growl or otherwise be an ass while you are up there' <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ).

With NILIF, it isn't about not using compulsion, or for luring and bribing the dog with treats. You don't use treats at all. The only time the dog gets a treat is if the owner chooses to give him one, and again, he must obey a command first or he gets nothing.


NILIF is not difficult at all. I don't even think about it when I do do it. You probably do it too, and not even realize it.

Actually, I started studying NILIF when Debbie Zappia started to use it - I wanted to see if it was just another fad, or if it had some training value. So I feel that I understand it the concept of it just fine.
And I don't mean this in a bad way, but if you think that NIFIL is *not* about training, well.....let's just say that I don't think I'm the confused one here.

Maybe need to just stop commenting in the pets threads and let folks cling to their beliefs. Results aren't everything...... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />