i am trying to have all the elements together for the heel attention finish etc before i do any steps.

They are not the same thing. Swing/flip are pretty much the same. The military finish the dog goes around to the heel position. I have never heard of "the basic position" I am assuming you are talking about heel?

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They are not the same thing. Swing/flip are pretty much the same. The military finish the dog goes around to the heel position.END

I didn't know that! All these years.......

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They are not the same thing. Swing/flip are pretty much the same. The military finish the dog goes around to the heel position..

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/1878/wardog.html#swing

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Military-or-swing finish...........I found the same answer you did, Ann, everywhere I looked online (that they are the same thing). I had thought that they weet the same thing for 30 years or so, too. But I'm open to finding out that there are other opinions! Anyone else?

I was 7 when I started training. The military finish was what I was taught. I also remember that a lot of dogs in WW2 were trained by Koehler.

That was a nice little article. I notice they convienently left out about when they hit the beach under mortar fire that they had to shoot a large number of those dogs because they lost it under the mortar fire and went after thier handlers.

I guess what I am saying is I think that article is fluff. Plus if I have to spell thier/their one more time I am going to lose it! I can never remember the right way. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I spend silly amounts of time teaching the eye contact before I ever even take a step.

To me, "fuss" means look me in the eye, and the picture of the attention heel is just a natural follow on from that. If the dog is focused on your eyes and you start moving, it comes naturally. I teach the position up against a wall/fence. I only start a few steps at a time. Once you have that solid eye contact, and the basic position down, you should be able to move forwards, backwards and sideways and the dog stay in the "heel position"

One of my dogs I had to teach with food (hotdogs launched from my mouth) because he becomes too unclear if I do it with the tug. The food keeps it more calm till the behavior is set. Only once he knows the command do I spunk it up some with the tug.

I have a very watered down swing finish. Watered down meaning that the dog does not launch up by my shoulder on the return, he more literally just swings his butt around. I had to teach him this way as I am not partial to nipple or shoulder bites <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I say all this and I really am not a fan of the constant eye contact. I prefer a 70% attention heel <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I just have an issue with my dogs looking like robots LOL

I like that kind of finish. I tried the jumping finish a few times, and found that I end up with the butt swing. It is most likely due to the fact that some days I have ungodly perfect timing, and some days I am sure that I have dain bramage. Some day I hope to have some middle ground. I am sure my dogs hope that as well!