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Oddball sizes is another amatuer thing. "I have crap and like to have puppies" Thats what they're adds ought to say.

I think that too many people go for color first. There are a lot of people that really like wierd stuff so they can stick out and be noticed. It sells.

thats good I like that. It is so true the idea of lets work with what we got.

Personally, I'd define "bettering the breed" as taking the original purposes of the breed (working, not show) and holding true to that, trying to make each generation better at that purpose than the last. I do not equate it with people who think bettering their breed means making them prettier, bigger, more colors, better in the show ring, etc. In GSDs, I'd say bettering would equate to improving drives, hips (can you imagine 90% of all GSDs with OFA good or better?), abilities, but definitely not working on the trotting gait or the size. With a hunting breed, bettering would come down to making sure each dog in each blooding either hunts successfully or succeeds in hunt trials or has the genetics for either.

Breeding to improve is all in the eye of the beholder, though, but if I would get into breeding, no matter which breed, I would look at its intended purposes and breed for the drives and structure (color and pretty can take a back seat) that would allow the dog to do the work, be it birding, protection sport, etc.

That said, I think it would definitely be interesting if a project was undertaken to build a steady, respectable line of working-capable black GSDs, for the sake of keeping their abilities going as well as increasing the amount of black GSDs out there. Note I did NOT say breed ONLY black dogs, but breed dogs of strong drive and structure that are either black or carry the genes that produce black dogs, never settling for less just because a dog is black.

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Breeding to improve is all in the eye of the beholder, though, but if I would get into breeding, no matter which breed, I would look at its intended purposes and breed for the drives and structure (color and pretty can take a back seat) that would allow the dog to do the work, be it birding, protection sport, etc.

what about the drives to fight as in apbt. I think this is one area that if we breed to be an working dog that we could channel them in a new and more positive light. Some say breed for gameness that is what they did. But that is illegal now. So I think maybe this could be one exception to breeding for their original purpose. Temperament is utmost important in this breed.

Just my thoughts

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what about the drives to fight as in apbt. I think this is one area that if we breed to be an working dog that we could channel them in a new and more positive light. Some say breed for gameness that is what they did. But that is illegal now. So I think maybe this could be one exception to breeding for their original purpose. Temperament is utmost important in this breed.

Just my thoughts

Having been around pitbulls since I was 2 or 3 years old and having them my hole life. I would have to say I could not agree more with you.

David.

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what about the drives to fight as in apbt. I think this is one area that if we breed to be an working dog that we could channel them in a new and more positive light. Some say breed for gameness that is what they did. But that is illegal now. So I think maybe this could be one exception to breeding for their original purpose. Temperament is utmost important in this breed.

Just my thoughts

When it comes to pit bulls, no you don't breed for original intended purpose specifically, but drawing off that intended purpose you still want a tough dog with a great deal of endurance, one who is obedient and handler-safe, one who will grip the sleeve and keep on gripping (this is in the irondog, correct? I hope I got the name right), basically, a working dog that will definitely not be used for dogfighting or bullbaiting, but one that can still work in working sports. I believe the drives are mostly the same, but definitely channeled for a different purpose. Like how the border collie is built for herding but those same drives are channeled to make the border an agility/flyball/obedience star, rather than breeding a low-energy showdog.

I suppose I should have worded it differently.. basically, take the original working purposes of the breed and the current working purposes and breed for the drives and structure that would give future generations the genetics to excel in the work suited for the breed. I hope that makes it a bit clearer.

couldn't agree more

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I suppose I should have worded it differently

No, you worded it fine. I understand what you ment. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You are tottaly right though. I agree with you 110%

David.

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just like in showlines that have longcoats

it not just the show lines that can produce long coats it is also in the working lines

from what i have learned about genetic lately is that both parent must have the gene in order to pass it down, color size, hair length, temperment, etc....

In response to question 1, no, I don't think you can breed for betterment and for money. To have a litter of puppies is not cheap and if you care about the quality, you're not going to be breeding as often as you can. It takes time to find out what the puppies are going to be like. It seems to me that breeders who really care about temperment and working ability don't breed that often.

As far as question number 2, I don't think you can breed for oddball colors, etc and care about the breed. White Bouviers are unacceptable but if you had a fabulous one, you could breed it to a black one and get other colors. But breeding two whatever off color Bouviers to get a color is not betterment.

But on the flip side, some breeders of working dogs do the exact same thing about only focusing on working ability. Sometimes form, structure and looks suffers. With Bouviers, I've seen some that worked well but lost a lot of the Bouvier "look" (pointy noses, haggard looks) which is part of the dog. I've seen it happen in Labs too. My sister has a yellow lab her daughter won in a raffle. Pretty dog but will only retrieve rocks. They got a dog out of working lines that isn't quite as "typy" but is a great retriever. The working lines seem to have curly tails. It may not seem like that much but the "otter tail" is part of the breed characteristic for swimming purposes. I think a breeder that really cares about the breed would be trying to incorporate working ability and breed characteristics - which comes down to "pretty".
All said and done though, I would choose a dog on temperment first (need stability to work, train), working abilities - for whatever my purpose would be, and then looks - I think proper structure makes them look "pretty" but I also want them typy.
I think I got a little wordy but it's an interesting coincidence that I've been thinking about show vs working breeders for the last couple of days.

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In response to question 1, no, I don't think you can breed for betterment and for money. To have a litter of puppies is not cheap and if you care about the quality, you're not going to be breeding as often as you can. It takes time to find out what the puppies are going to be like. It seems to me that breeders who really care about temperment and working ability don't breed that often.

That's why a breeder needs to breed a number of litters if he is looking to produce a few really good dogs

that is from leerburg article foster program. People who spend more time with more litters (with the right motives) are going to learn more about their dogs than someone who breeds one litter and says they breed for quality not quantity.

quote White Bouviers are unacceptable but if you had a fabulous one, you could breed it to a black one and get other colors

If they are unacceptable don't breed them period. Just because a white gsd has good confirmation it is still a fault and should not be bred.

Not ment to be condeming just conversation and sharing views <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />