Is there really that big of a shortage of decent decoys?

Jeff, I would say 'Yes'. In my opinion the knowlegde about dog training of the helper/decoy is as important as the one of the 'trainings director'. The decoy actually teaches the dog to bite right, encourages the dog, builts confidence in the dog and knows how to be careful with prey drive and defence. Avoidance and defence get's triggert by the same stimuly and therefor you have to be very careful what you're doing. I think you know what I mean and I think there is the problem and there it lacks. Treating every dog to the dogs level and read the dog's behavior is a skill and not every helper out there can do it right. You can train somebody to be a trial helper by teaching him how to catch a dog but this doesn't mean he can develop and train a dog in protection work. Some people are just natural to handle dogs and act accordingly to every dogs behavior and others never learn it.

Jeff- there is a huge shortage of good training helpers everywhere - not just in America.

Your advise on telling people that own 6 month old dogs (or even dogs under a year) to get their dog on helpers is old school training. I have continued to comment on this whenever it’s posted on the board. I suggest that you go to some seminars that teach the correct way to do this work or get my DVD that shows how its done. http://leerburg.com/310.htm

The foundation of protection work is done by the handler not a helper.

So at least on my board - stop telling these people to have a helper work young dogs. There are much better and safer ways to do this and it’s all done by handlers.

The only acceptation to this rule is where the handler is physically handicapped in some way and can’t do it.

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The foundation of protection work is done by the handler not a helper.

Ed,
This may sound silly, but "what a relief"! Being someone who has just begun to dip my toe into these waters, the thought of anyone besides myself working on foundation skills wasn't something that was sitting well with me. I am sure there will always be people who think they can (or can) do it better, but what the heck kind of foundation would you be building?

I may be new to the "working dog" world, but am not new to dogs. There is so much that can happen to a young dog that you just can't undo. No one can care as much, or be as in-tune as a handler who is dedicated to his/her own dog. After all, isn't any success (or not) rooted in that primary relationship?

I ordered your foundation dvd this morning, and plan to get the next in the series once we have some solid footing.

Thanks for providing a place for such a wealth of tried-and-true information! I like to avoid reinventing the wheel, or making mistakes that can easily be avoided with experienced guidance.

T

Mitch,

Are you planning on doing Schutzhund with this dog or some other sport? If you are doing Schutzhund, then Ed is definitely right about this. To generalize, a good number of the Schutzhund helpers I've seen aren't really that interested in working pups to begin with, and the advice from Ed's dvds is better than what you are likely to get from the helpers. However, if you can get to a seminar or can get to see someone who is experienced doing the techniques, it can be very helpful.

If you are thinking of doing French Ring or some of the other ringsports, I think there might be a good argument for finding a decoy who is experienced at raising and preparing pups for ring. The clatter stick and some other environmental training can be done early to get the dog ready to face a decoy in FR.

Either way, you should get the dvd's and work the dog on your own.

What do others think about this? If you were raising a dog for ringsport or for personal protection work on a suit, would you do this stage of the developmental work differently than if you were raising them for Schutzhund?

--Alan...

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What do others think about this? If you were raising a dog for ringsport or for personal protection work on a suit, would you do this stage of the developmental work differently than if you were raising them for Schutzhund?

--Alan...

Nope, the foundation is the same. You can (and should) use clatter sticks, bottles with rocks, and other environmental stresses on your puppy or young dog YOURSELF before letting a stranger do this. (regardless of your chosen program for the dog) Once my dog is not phased at all by things like this, and the gripping is where I want it and the dog is ready for defense THEN I add the helper.

NOW to contradict myself here <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> if I had access to Mike Ellis on a weekly basis, I would probably start a pup on the helper sooner BUT I would still start everything myself and make sure it was solid with me first.

I've started exposing my entire litter to noxious noises from objects of opposition ( clatter sticks, shake barrels, etc. ) at an early age so that they're fairly immune to those noises by the time a potential puppy buyer gets there hands on them.
I start with a few rocks in a twenty ounce Gatorade bottle shaken gentle at age five weeks working my way up to a few pennies in a large plastic cat litter container jug vigorously shaken at age eight weeks. Works well for me.

O.K. Ed, I never realized that it was that bad out there. I have had to dig thru so much trash with some dogs due to their owner not knowing what they are doing, or doing to much. How about I bring my training buddy and we just go around and visit clubs <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I always thought I was pretty good with the babies, this guy rocks!

Sorry about the helper thing, in my opinion if all you can work is the adults, you are not a helper. I like starting the babies, that way when they go rock the decoys world you have me to thank!!

"Sorry about the helper thing, in my opinion if all you can work is the adults, you are not a helper."

Jeff, think about this for a moment if you would. There are many aspects to helper work. I know several good trial helpers that are not the best training helpers - that aspect of helper work just doesn't interest them. Yet they'll be helpers at high level trials and do a *great* job.

Or we'll take my club for example. We have an excellent ( really one of the best in this country ) helper/ decoy. He does good prey work for young dogs, excellent defense work for the older more experienced dogs, plus he's an incredibly skilled suit decoy. But he's not going to bother to become a certified decoy for SchH since he finds the sport boring, so we'll never see him as a trial helper ( in SchH at least, he's a top rated decoy in bite suit sports ).
Or me - I'm old and pudgy with a lot of past traumatic injuries due to combat, so I don't move too fast. I do however have great presence and I can bring out defense in a dog with just a glance. So you won't see me trying to envoke prey drive in a puppy because even if I'm happy and smiling, the dogs senses that I'm different and they're intimidated. But for the Police canine work that we do, I get the job done and the officers leave knowing that their dog won't likely be intimidated by a perp if it could stand up to me.

I'm just saying that there are many ways to be a helper, and all of them are needed at one time or another at a club or trial.

That does make sense, but can you imagine if you worked the puppy and he realized that you won't kill him how much stronger he would be? And trial decoys would test the dogs even better, because they knew how to dig past the training, and get in their heads. You definately have a point. I just expect too much from myself, and others. I would, if I had access to you work my young dog on you so he could see that by pushing through, everything would be o.k.