Hi Jeff,

I am not sure why I am trying to build drive. Maybe I shouldn’t be… that is why I posted the question. I want to work with her in Shutzhund. I assumed I had to find something to motivate her. But if it ends up that she was forced trained as was suggested by Ann then building drive won’t work.

I have her score cards yes, and I had all her papers reviewed by a breeder/trainer that imports German Dogs for K-9 and Protection work (not the same one who imported her). He was very impressed with her pedigree and her scorecard. He also evaluated her in an informal manner and said it is me that needs training. I am doing as much research on how to handler her. Unfortunately… I didn’t ask the right questions before I bought her now I am back peddling to find a training method that works for her.

It would make sense that if she was forced trained… toys would not interest her. This board is a great source of help! Thank you again.

It's *never* too late to start building drive.

Sure, it's better to lay the foundations in puppyhood, but any dog can benefit from introducing drive training, no matter what stage of the game that they're at. And it's a lot nicer way to train your dog...you and your dog will both be thankful for the time and effort that you spend here, believe me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Julia...what were her scores? Did she only get titled and then stopped trialing? How old is she? Can you post her pedigree? There are some...few...bitches, that are titled to SchIII...usually they are from very strong working lines. It's unusual for a titled female from STRONG working lines to be slack. Also unusual for a good...and highly titled (young?) bitch to be sold...unless the price was high.

Any chance she's got some "show lines" in the mix?

I say this because currently I'm helping the Show GS people in El Salvador with their dogs...and there is no right way to do a wrong thing...these lines simply DO NOT HAVE THE WILL TO DO THE WORK. A few of the males are SchIII, and sure...they'll do the work...but it's not much fun for them.
They'd prefer to go out for a run with the owner, go back home, relax next to the couch, eat a bit, sleep a lot!

Will,

I agree, I would much rather drive train then forced train. I am not sure I have the nerves to forced train. Do you know of a simple test I could try to confirm or deny whether she has been forced trained.

Andres,

She is from show line and she is only 2 1/2.

Her Scores: 240, 265, 240,

Her Pedigree is:

Father: Dino v. General-Guisanstrasse
Mother: Phillis du Domaine du Bois Fleuri

Thanks for any insight you may offer.

Julia, this is the same dog you posted about earlier?
http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/4151247/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1

If so, it sounds like she's a lovely dog, but just from your comments here it also sounds like she simply does not have the interest (drives) that you were perhaps expecting.

Ann,

Yes that is the dog... it was 6 days after she arrived. She has settled in completely. I brought to her to watch a Protection Training class and the minute we got there she came alive. She was visibly excited and wanted to participate. Watching her and seeing how happy she was, is the *only* reason I have taken an interest in Schutzhund. I did not buy her for that reason. She wanted to participate so bad… but I couldn’t let her because I knew absolutely nothing about handling her or the sport. I just want to have fun with her. I want to learn how to handler her so we can participate. Again… it is me that needs training and I am trying to find a method that works for her. I don’t care about scores and trophies… just good old fun with my dog.

Knowing how she was trained is what I need to know at this point. I think I have tracked down the handler and I am going to send him an email. There is a big difference between motivation and forced training. If she has been force trained I may forget about Schutzhund because I don't think I have the nerve to train her that way.

Thanks again for all the helpful feedback.

It will take time and patience to retrain her for schutzhund using motivational methods but it is something you CAN do. If she was previously trained using forceful methods, you can change the way you train and handle her. Luckily, if she has already been trained, alot of the forceful part is behind her. Prey exercises that are a fun game to her can help her stay into the sport if she was trained using alot of defense and compulsion. A few people at your club will be able to help you and tell you if she is in prey drive and enjoying what she is doing. She will look at the sport from a different view if taught with alot of force, but you can reteach it to be fun for her.

Julia,
Wow....this is an interesting puzzle indeed.

I agree with Will that it's never too late to work on building drive. If she was primarily compulsion trained, it may take longer to bring it out, as she won't want to do anything *wrong*.

As a reformed clicker-trainer (meaning I have trained in the past using NO corrections...now I use both, although primarily reinforcement/reward-based training), I would break down drive building into the teeniest tiniest increments. It's called splitting. She has to move before she can grab and tug, so reinforce any movement whatsoever.

Is she motivated by food? I might get her involved with the toy by playing with it myself, making it move erratically away from her, and at the tiniest little noticeable reaction from her shriek 'yes!' and give her a tidbit of hotdog or something. Make a big fuss as if she has set the world on fire.

Somehow you need to get the message to her that doing something new is GOOD. I am talking that even if she raises an eyebrow, say "yes!" and give her a treat....anything to get her engaged.

Don't give her any cues to sit, or heel, or down or anything before doing these exercises. If you think about how a precision dog is trained, saying "sit" and waving a ball in her face could be seen as just some other distraction that she has been proofed against.

If you watch the Flinks video, the most common and obvious handler mistakes are slow movement, lack of animation, and lack of praise and enthusiasm. Your dog won't be enthusiastic if you aren't. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> If you're not feeling like an ass and out of breath, you aren't trying hard enough. LOL

Also, keep these little drive building sessions to a minute tops. You can do it multiple times throughout the day, but if this were my dog, I'd settle for the tiniest reaction, over-reward, and call it quits. Make a fuss over whatever toy you are using, and put it away.

Lastly, bring her back to the club, pick out someone who seems to be a happy lively person with a well-trained dog, and ask them for help.

I am sure there is an "on" button in there somewhere...think of all the fun you can have trying to find it! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

T

Thanks Alison and Tracy! She is food motivated to some degree so I think I can work with that. I didn’t buy her with the idea I would work her so I didn’t ask the right questions from the breeder. I hope other newbie’s out there learn from my mistake… even if they aren’t planning to work the dog… knowing how the dog was trained is useful information.

Thanks again everyone! Have a great day.

Maybe I am really out of it, but you cannot pass with a 240 or a 265 for any level of sch right??? Please, if the lamos in charge lowered passing scores to 240, just don't tell me, I would rather be in the dark <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />