When using an e-collar for this it is the most simple and old training where e-collars have been used.
It is no diffeent than old fashioned "trashbreaking" for hounds.
The snakes should scare the hell out of the dog. Very high levels of stimulation in association with snakes produce avoidance. You want the reaction to be strong enough that the dog is placed into flight. Yes it is gonna hurt, yes it is the opposit of what everyone today tells you about using the collar for training.
This isn't pretty training. It is about serious events. For poisonous snakes in some areas it can be lifesaving. For houndsmen a dog is useless (and maybe even criminal) if it chases deer. Soooo, deer burn, snakes burn.
The biggst problem with this work is when people are inexperienced in the work and are not placing the dogs into a crisis point with the collar. You need to decide that for this onece you'll have a cold heart for the dogs good. The use of the collar in training a dog to do skills for us is not what we're talking about here. This isn't training per se though the dog is learning. It is creating fear in the dog so that they will react to the same stimuli with fear in the future.

Understood, Kevin. And thanks Jeff for the link to Lou's previous post. Good stuff. So, basically, it's high levels of stim given at the moment the dog scents/see the snake, creating the SNAKE = BAD STUFF association. Stim given at such a high level, in fact, that it sends the dog into avoidance/flight from the perceived source, the snake. No care is given to the comfort of the dog (stim might hurt like hell, but it's NOT death after all.)

A few quick questions:

1. What should the duration of the stim be? (Instant/Constant?)
2. Is there a reward given later once the dog learns the association or is SNAKE = BAD STUFF all you really want?
3. Is there a minimum age to start at (with such high levels of stim)? I got the impression from my friend that this was an 8-10 week old puppy.

Thanks all for the replies. It's nice to learn something new.

1. What should the duration of the stim be? (Instant/Constant?)

Constant. Duration will be to receive the desired response...fear.

2. Is there a reward given later once the dog learns the association or is SNAKE = BAD STUFF all you really want?

No, in fact it is important that the handler play NO PART in this. There is no interaction between the handler and the dog.

3. Is there a minimum age to start at (with such high levels of stim)? I got the impression from my friend that this was an 8-10 week old puppy.

Too young....at this stage just nurture the dog and protect it while it goes through the formitive part of its life. Six months at the very very low end for this stuff.

Thanks for the info, Kevin.

I've seen one day snake proofing classes available in my area. They consist of proofing against sight , sound and smell. The ecollar is used as an aversive to create (hopefully) avoidance. If a snake is sleeping in the sun stretched across a path and your dog doesn't see it, he's still screwed. Also if the dogs prey drive is attracting him to the wriggling snake, it may override and avoidance training.

I've done a couple of snake proofing seminars and trust me, they're not fun. I spend all day hurting the dogs, scaring them, causing them pain and stress. I rationalize it by realizing that in the long run, I'm saving their lives and the lives of their handlers as well. But I like dogs and I don't like hurting them.

I don't sew the snake's mouths shut. I think that's stepping into abuse. I like snakes too and don't feel the need. I just use electrical tape to keep their mouths closed.

Dogs need to convinced that the sight, the sound (usually limited to rattlers) and the scent of a snake, any snake; bites them from as far away as they can see, hear or smell the snake. The highest levels that an Ecollar affords are used and there's really no direction necessary. It hurts so much that the dogs jump away from the collar around their neck and away from the snake. If they happen to jump towards the snake the button is held down until they move away from it. The dog are guided towards the snake, actually it's more of an invitation, and when (with the scent part of the training) the dog alerts to the new (snake) smell, the button is pressed. I use continuous and hold it down for 2-3 seconds. I don't use rewards, the stim stopping is negative reinforcement. I do praise once the dog has calmed down a bit. I have someone other than the handler work the dog. Sometimes handlers become emotional distraught at seeing their dog in distress and don't want to continue. I wouldn't do it to a dog that was less than 6 months and then only if he was mature.

We used a big bull snake with the puppies. We had tried this with older puppies and sometimes they figured since the snake was hurting them, might as well kill it. OOOOPPPSS. That is why we started them young. Most of the time the snake bit the crap out of their nose and it was a done deal. The others, wellllll, Lets just say they ALWAYS ended up being the kill dogs and luckily liked coon better than snake <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I don't think it's a good idea to use a non-poisonous snake to teach dogs to stay away from snakes. I think that poisonous snakes (of each species) have a distinctive odor. If a dog is trained with a non-poisonous snake he'll probably avoid a snake if he sees it (some dogs won't go near a garden hose or piece of rope on the ground after this training). But I also want the dog to avoid the snake if he only smells it as well. I'd use a representative of each poisonous snake that's in the dog's environment.

It's only been done as long as I or my father can remember. Snakes pretty much smell the same to me, and I have had a few over the years. We didn't have e-collars back then, or even know what they were. I can't say that I remember any of our dogs being afraid of the garden hose, or rope either. But these were hound dogs, whose world is seen through their nose. I am afraid I can't say the same for our working breeds. They use there eyes first. So maybe for them you are right.

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Snakes pretty much smell the same to me, and I have had a few over the years.

I think it's a serious error to compare your sense of smell, or that of any human, to a dog's sense of smell. I know that different species of snakes smell different, I've compared them. When training dogs to hunt game it's not a big deal if you miss a bird or a raccoon because there's a non-poisonous snake present and the dog avoids it (thereby also avoiding the game). It is a big deal if you miss a hiding murderer or a lost child because a search dog avoids a non-poisonous snake.

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I can't say that I remember any of our dogs being afraid of the garden hose, or rope either.

It doesn't happen often, but it does happen. Some dogs generalize to other things than the snakes. I know of one dog that avoided the edges of shadows.