Matt,

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. I completely AGREE with you about todays dogs as they relate to Schutzhund and working on the street. And I agree that most Schutzhund dogs (at ALL levels) are prey dogs. I fully agree with that.

The point I was trying to make was that there ARE Schutzhund folks that still prefer to work hard dogs that are NOT prey dogs. They may be few and far between, but they ARE out there (handlers/helpers/judges). They don't usually end up at Nationals, etc, because of the types of dogs they work (ie, not "points" dogs.)

Is that the norm for Schutzhund? Absolutely not. But to say that Schutzhund folks/dogs are soft/prey across the board is not correct. Most are, but it all depends on the individual dog, handler, helper and judge.

Best regards.

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Very few Sch dogs are making it to the street these days and if they do they go thru a training program to help put a little defence on the dog.

I fully agree. I bought a titled male that made a great show of being, what everyone took for, aggression. I took hom for some civil training one day just to see what would happen. The first time a helper jumped out from behind a van without warning and rushed us, I thought the dg was going to pee itself and run. He didn't he backed up a few steps and then went into an unsure bark and hold. Once he saw the sleeve on the guy the dog was like "oh thank goodness" and bit. It was slightly embarrising and it was also the last time I bought an already titled dog. My one year old male, for exapmle, iss and entirely differant scenario. I had him at the same civil club and they were almost done for the day so we were leaving. Unknowingly, we walked past a cargo van that had a helper behind it. He jumped out at us and this time it was me that almost peed myself <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> My dog, on the other hand, went right for the guy, who had a hidden sleeve, but nothing visable. We let him have the bite and then I left. I dont want to work him in anything but prey right now as he tends to be overly aggressive. At least I know he can do the work though.

Scott I guess I mis read your post. You are right there are a few trainers that prefer to handle harder dogs. Some can make it some cannot. But like you said most of these trainers are in it for the love of the game nothing more which I admire.

so it seems like it is preatty safe to say that majority of us agree that Schh has become a sport and nothing more. So now for my next part of this question. in the past you could look at a dogs lines and see if the pup was going to be a good working dog or not by looking at past titles. now that schh is more of a show and less of a true working test how can a person like myself get a pup that i know will be hard and not just a prey feen that has no other drive. we can't really look at schh titles anymore. so what does one do? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> thanks for all the replys and i think we all have our own feelings towards the sport. i will say that it is fun to watch though

What about Looking into IPO it is sporty, but also kind of more dificult than ZVV, tracking is harder, also obedience, agility part and also protection.. . Honestly I got kicked out once it is harder than ZVV (And the sad thing was I made mistakes not my dog).. at least for me. Other people can have different opinion. I cant compare Schutz to anything.. I have never trained it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> But I sure trained for IPO and I think it is a hard trial..IPO3 was like masters degree for me.
Never finished it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

The rules changed slightly last year for SchH (now called VPG) and IPO. If I understand it correctly, the rules for SchH (VPG) and IPO are now virtually identical. From what little I understand about ZVV/SVV Trials, ZVV/SVV is much more difficult than SchH(VPG)/IPO.

Can anyone else shed additional light on this?

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From what little I understand about ZVV/SVV Trials, ZVV/SVV is much more difficult than SchH(VPG)/IPO.

From what I have heard you are correct. I was told that the ZVV/SVV 3 is one of the hardest titles to obtain. But like I said it is just what I heard.

So from what I understand Schutz has changed a lot. It is interesting to see that since I grew up with SVV only. Well my IPO experience was a total fiasco.
Hmm is there anything people could do to improve it? if it is suppose to be improved..not quiet sure.
Iam so new to this and I have read couple of things about the philosofy and it is very strange to me.. I mean the dog has to look like is is born for shutz only. Well I like when the dog enjoys it. I dont expect it to do some "creative jumps".. The question I have what is the most important thing in Schutz.. : the quality of work.. precise job or how the dog looks like when working or is there a middle way?

Jason wrote: "in the past you could look at a dogs lines and see if the pup was going to be a good working dog or not by looking at past titles."


This has never really been the case. It's always been necessary to look at the actual dogs involved in order to find the traits you really want.

If you want a serious dog, you need to look for serious dogs. . . .not titles or popular pedigrees.

VC, would you also agree that even though there are some serious dogs in the sport, they aren't necessarily the dogs with the high scores and fancy pedigrees? Thus the need to see the dog perform, and not on the sport field. It's to easy for a good trainer to make a halfway good dog look lots better than it actually is under the controlled exercises of the sport field. Unfortunately, it's the high scoring dogs and fancy pedigrees that people want to breed to.