Connie, some good information there. Thanks. I'm not necessarily looking for online stuff. Actually, I tend to discount online sources unless they come from recognized, respected institutions. So your references are fine. In fact, I'm going to try and find some of them so I can read them in full. One question that comes to mind with the Swedish study is in what form was the raw food given? Were the pieces the same size as the kibble? It's rather hard to imagine a barely-chewed, mostly whole chicken leg quarter zipping through the stomach. Small pieces, however, I can believe going through very quickly.

Also, the quote on the Swedish study points out that the dog receives energy faster from raw food. It doesn't say anything about pathogens, nor does it say this is necessarily better than getting the energy more slowly (although I would tend to think it is, since it is what the dog would experience in the wild). The red flag it sends up for me is bloat - if food stays around in the stomach longer, that implies (but doesn't prove) a greater chance of bloat. Again, I'd like to know if feeding large hunks of meat slows down the exit from the stomach to the point it's indistinguishable from kibble.

So, I've got some reading to do. Sometimes it's a real pain being such a sceptic!

Thanks again.

The Solid Gold is kibbles but is made with bison & wild caught salmon(puppie food)

To throw in another choice I don't think has been mentioned - Innova EVO, a grain free, a "healthy raw" kibble. I initially started my GSD on small portions in anticipation of an upcoming boarding session which never came about. She later decided to start spitting out her daily fish oil caps, and I unsuccessfully tried a number of methods to get the stuff down her. I finally got her to accept salmon oil on the EVO, so now she gets 1/3 cup each morning. I never feed it in the same meal with raw, tho. I can't see that it's had any negative or noticeable affect on her digestion. But after 7 combined years of raw feeding (2 different dogs), I don't sweat a lot of the details like I might have in past. As they used to say a couple thousand years ago, "Moderation in all things."

Mike

 Quote: mike armstrong

To throw in another choice I don't think has been mentioned - Innova EVO, a grain free, a "healthy raw" kibble. I initially started my GSD on small portions in anticipation of an upcoming boarding session which never came about. She later decided to start spitting out her daily fish oil caps, and I unsuccessfully tried a number of methods to get the stuff down her. I finally got her to accept salmon oil on the EVO, so now she gets 1/3 cup each morning. I never feed it in the same meal with raw, tho. I can't see that it's had any negative or noticeable affect on her digestion. But after 7 combined years of raw feeding (2 different dogs), I don't sweat a lot of the details like I might have in past. As they used to say a couple thousand years ago, "Moderation in all things."

Mike

Yes, Innova Evo has a very good ingredient list and reputation, IMO. In fact, it makes the Leerburg list of better kibbles.

 Quote: Curt Mills

We started feeding Solid Gold Check it out . Its not raw but beleive it is high quality.I worry about raw because of all the antibiotics fed to chickens. Its alot.

This is something I've been curious about - wouldn't it be the same type of chicken in kibble? If the antibiotic residue is in the raw chicken, won't it also be in the finished product?

FWIW, hormones are not allowed to be given to meat chickens under FDA guidlines. So anything human grade won't have hormones. The antibiotics are still used, but with most there is a certain wothdrawl time before slaughter dependant on the antibiotic and ammount used.

I would be interested in seeing the results of a study on antibiotic residue in meat, if someone can point me in that direction.

 Quote: AnitaGard

Connie, some good information there. Thanks. I'm not necessarily looking for online stuff. Actually, I tend to discount online sources unless they come from recognized, respected institutions. So your references are fine. In fact, I'm going to try and find some of them so I can read them in full. One question that comes to mind with the Swedish study is in what form was the raw food given? Were the pieces the same size as the kibble? It's rather hard to imagine a barely-chewed, mostly whole chicken leg quarter zipping through the stomach. Small pieces, however, I can believe going through very quickly.

Also, the quote on the Swedish study points out that the dog receives energy faster from raw food. It doesn't say anything about pathogens, nor does it say this is necessarily better than getting the energy more slowly (although I would tend to think it is, since it is what the dog would experience in the wild). The red flag it sends up for me is bloat - if food stays around in the stomach longer, that implies (but doesn't prove) a greater chance of bloat. Again, I'd like to know if feeding large hunks of meat slows down the exit from the stomach to the point it's indistinguishable from kibble.

So, I've got some reading to do. Sometimes it's a real pain being such a sceptic!

Thanks again.

First, bloat...... from Tufts
http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedings.plx?CID=TUFTSBG2003&PID=5091&O=Generic
QUOTE: During the past 30 years there has been a 1,500 percent increase in the incidence of bloat, and this has coincided with the increased feeding of dry dog foods. There is a much lower incidence of bloat in susceptible breeds in Australia and New Zealand. Feeding practices in these countries have been found to be less dependent on dry foods. END

Of course, as we know, the body type appears to be the top factor (narrow deep chest), and there are several other major contributors, it appears, such as age, personality type (nervous, anxious), recent stress, etc. However, I've read from several authoritative sources (UC Davis and Tufts among them) that a 100% kibble diet appears to be a common factor among bloat cases.

Then, your mention of sizes of the pieces of food. Nothing I have learned in the last two or three years (during which I've been researching canine nutrition and allergies) suggests to me that the size of the food is particularly important compared to the kind of food when you're considering rate of digestion. Baked, extruded, very dry (dry enough to have an extremely long shelf life) kibble would be a considerably longer-digesting food than fresh raw water-loaded meat, but when you add to that the fact that it is probably grain-heavy, and that dogs lack the enzymes that we humans produce abundantly to process grains --- these, IMO, are the factors that account for the difference in digestion rates. (The grain-as-protein factor would be removed, of course, in the best kibbles.)

About pathogen colonization: I personally have no niggling doubts about the theory that kibble fed with raw meat can unnaturally slow down the dog's normally speedy digestion. Because several food-borne microbial pathogens colonize within hours of entering the intestine, I also believe that the difference between 3-5 hours and 12-16 hours is important.

But what I believe is not authoritative in any way. All I can do is read what the really educated people have written and draw my own conclusions. Maybe one of them will see this thread and pop in here with some great citations.

I think we would all do well to be skeptical and check up on oft-repeated theories before we base something like our dogs' lifelong diet on them -- so I say good for you.

I hope we didn't get too wildly off-topic for the o.p.

 Quote: Mara Jessup

 Quote: Curt Mills

We started feeding Solid Gold Check it out . Its not raw but beleive it is high quality.I worry about raw because of all the antibiotics fed to chickens. Its alot.

This is something I've been curious about - wouldn't it be the same type of chicken in kibble? If the antibiotic residue is in the raw chicken, won't it also be in the finished product?..

 Quote: Curt Mills

The Solid Gold is kibbles but is made with bison & wild caught salmon(puppie food)

 Quote: Carol Boche

Ooh Ooh Ooh, (hand raised up high and bouncing in seat) I have a question.
If I forget to take out food (heaven forbid) and I am out of Honest Kitchen (has not happened yet) and all I have is kibble, can I feed that in the morning and then go back to raw that night after food is prepared?
I do not like to fast the Bloodhound too often due to bloat.
Thanks

I think yes. Everything I have read indicates that kibble and raw fed that far apart are fine. Just the arithmetic makes me conclude that.

It's JMO, though.

Im sure that the antibiotics are in kibbles too.Thats what I like about the Solid Gold puppie food (wolf cub).Its supposed to be antibotic free.

our 14 week old gsd LOVES her raw food diet! I was nervous the first time I gave her the first chicken wing, but she scarfed it down in no time and looked at me like "where's the rest of it?" lol

I've heard some people will make the Honest Kitchen stuff into patties or bars and freeze them making it easier for a boarding kennel or pet sitter to feed them without having to actually fix anything...