Josh and Lou have stated that PSDs need to be able to work solely on command and be friendly at all other times,so do working Protection dogs.I work with diplomatic protection dogs that are used in conditions were there may be hundreds of people and they have to be friendly at all times,there are women and children present on most occassions which requires a very stable dog and a sporting PPD would not be able to do this work reliably,so to compare a sporting dogs way of operating with a working dog is impossible.The comment about if the handler is down is a simple one,the dog carries on with the aggressor until the threat stops,he then stops and remains friendly until there is a further threat.Dogs are far more able to see a threat than we are,remember an aggressor is on a high and dogs can sense the change in body function.Many anti terrorist units now deploy dogs before men,the purpose is for the dog to identify the terrorist from the hostage to enable the shooters to get it right.

Curtisoms,

The timing depends on the dog. I have seen people recomend a 1 hour "cooling off" period. The recomendation is that the dog be kept away from everybody for that time frame. The more typical thing I see is the dogs 5-10 mins to calm back down. My Giant will quit and then pick the sleeve back up and go to the aggitator for pets as soon as we are done. That is working in strong defense work with a long fight. We tell him thats it and so now he just wants to be petted by anybody around.

This leads to a funny story. One day we had a woman with her 5 y/o daughter watching an aggitation session. She was thinking about having a dog trained. The little girl was climbing all over the Giant, not quite riding him like a horse, sticking her fingers in his mouth, pulling on his ears, you know the drill. We took him out to work, he did his thing and we started back up the hill where we were sitting while the other dogs were being worked. When we got back the little girl started to come back and play. Momma scooped her up and left, we have never seen her again. I don't think she is going to have her dog trained.

vince, why do you want your dog to jump into drive as soon as he see's the helper? I do not do any sport work, all my work with my two dogs is obedience first and then personal protection.I do not want sharp crazy dogs running around my house barking and jumping at anything that moves!I have and need to have full control over my dogs. when I am working one of my dogs i can put him in a down stay walk away and the helper can start to agitate him and get right up into his face and my dogs will just stay there and not move an inch no matter what the helper does unless one of two things happens, the helper touches me in an aggressive way or if i give the dog a command to do so.You said that you NEVER do obedience when entering or exiting the field.what do you do with your dog? let him do whatever he wants, of course you do obedience, how do you do personal protection without obedience? I do not do anything with my dogs without obedience!I always end my session with my dog winning he has won the game!And if i was walking down the street a half hour later with my dog and the helper walk past us in a full bite suite my dog would not do a thing to the helper,besides look at him unless i told him to, that is the obedience and control i am talking about and it took me a long time to get there!

Brendan Powning You are right about one thing you have said here and only one thing!
In your own words"You don't know a lot about protection dogs"!Let me take it a step further,you know absolutely nothing about personal protection dogs!so read on and mabey you can learn a thing or to!

On the topic of obedience training in relation to PPD work, don't know much about sport work, our club preaches obedience first. Once you have good obedience then you start protection work. As a matter of fact you pretty much have to have your dog doing complex obedience in a group setting before protection. This may draw some fire but we look at protection work as very advanced obedience.

Sully:

I don’t have to worry about how he acts in my house because he is kenneled. Why waste a correction on something that does not earn me a point? My dog lives and dies for his title. Period. Does that mean that I do not socialize him or spend quality time with him? No. But this is used for nerve and bond building which is also necessary for the sport. I said I never start or end a bite session with obedience. I never talked about in between. DRIVE – COMPULSION – DRIVE. He comes out of the crate. I use a ball or the helper to frustrate and build drive (D). Sit and heel (C). Send for a bite (D). Out (C). Carry the sleeve off the field(D) or agitate as we leave (D). You see it’s always D-C-D. That’s the key! We always start and end with drive.

Sully et al,

I dont have a problem with a dog that allows all and sundry to pet him as long as they are not showing aggression. I still think that it is a dumb idea that a person who has just engaged the dog in combat should then at any point relate to the dog as a friend or in any way other than as a adversary. As I said, if it isnt going to happen in real life why do it in training.

I agree that a dog personal protection dog should be friendly towards those who are friendly towards it.

If anyone can illustrate a situation where a dog would be expsected to relate as a friend to a person he has just fought for real please relate it to me.

By all means have the dog get a pat from a third party after a bite session as a means of teaching the ability to go from fighting like a tiger to being a kitty mintues latter.

I read a email Ed wrote a while ago stating he thought it was dumb to allow the agitator to pat a dog after a fight. He said he used to do it years ago before he knew anything about protection dogs. (Maybe this is where some of you are at).

Im willing to admit my ignorance. I want to learn, Im open to reasonned arguement not pedantic unsubstantiated opinions.

The mere fact that LAPD or what ever other american police force does such and such means stuff all to me . I saw how your ATF handled things at Waco and the FBI at Rubey Ridge. Are your dog training/ tactics on par with your paramilitairy police infantry tactics?

I dont mean to offend anyone by saying that, I think the US will leave Europe for dead eventually as far as breeding and using working dogs. Plus this site will be boring as hell if were all going to agree with one another and mouth platitudes and cliches.


Ed, Id be interested on your input on this. Should the agitator pet a dog whom he has just fought?

Some idiot writes:The mere fact that LAPD or what ever other american police force does such and such means stuff all to me . I saw how your ATF handled things at Waco and the FBI at Rubey Ridge. Are your dog training/ tactics on par with your paramilitairy police infantry tactics.
*** You don't know the first thing about ANY subject you are speaking of! At least not from your profile...do you have some special ops training you'd care to share with the rest of us? If not, stck to a subject you know. It obviously isn't police dogs. I think being in the hot Aussie sun has cooked your brain. Why not go and post on another board so we don't have to read your crap! Another CWK...coward with keyboard! Seems you have no experience of what you speak of, but want to tell folks how it is and judge everyone else. Go play w/ some crocs...perhaps we will get lucky and you won't come back from the bush!

Brendan,you criticise the ATF and FBI,I also have no direct knowledge of how they work but I do have a good knowledge of paramilitary operations and unless you have worked in such and been under fire and used deadly force,shut up and leave it to those who have,its not a joking subject for those who have to do the job and unless you are one of them at the time,you have no idea of what actually happened.

Paul and Josh,

First I apologise if I offended you both.
Thats said Ill ad this.
I didnt personally attack or villify either of you you have no right to do it to me.

Both the FBI and BATF have been critiscised by plenty of other people apart from me. Your right I wasnt there, but neither were either of you as far as I know. Therefore we can only go on the reports of what happened. I think yould both agree both outcomes werent all they ideally would of been.

I have basic infantry training and served in a armoured unit in the French Foreign Legion. I was in Hevron, Israel in febuary showing support for the settlers there. I know what it is like to be shot at.
I have a BA degree from Deakin University.

I reject your statement Im a coward. My address is 87 Langford Parade, Paynesville, Victoria, Australia. Tel 03 51560246. If your ever in Australia your welcome to stop by.

If you come as a friend your welcome in my home, if come with a atttiude youll see first hand Im no coward.

Some of us with no experiance with real life bites are facinated in this thread. So please meet on your own time to beat the hell out of each other and get on with the debate so I can learn a thing or two.