> You answered your own questions then....
> Get a Karelian Bear Dog!

I can't Cindy. For several reasons:

1) The stock available to me seem to have VERY high ZW scores for hip dysplasia. Because of high Zuchtwert scores, the progeny will definitely develop HD. ZW scores indicate the probability of progeny inhereting hip dysplasia.

2) The Karelians have a tendency to escape, run, dig out and go hunting. The farmers here shoot any dog on their property because they have valuable livestock.

3) I will be having other dogs. Karelians work alone. They don't get along with other dogs, other animals, pets, etc even if raised with them.

4) They are not a very obedient breed. Have a mind of their own. A very strong hunting instinct. Can't be used for Schutzhund, SAR, or anything else. You just lock them up the whole day and release them on the bear, that's all. Locking a dog up all day is not how I like to treat a dog.

5) The stock available in North America is horrible! No other way to put it.

6) I don't know a single person in Finland where bear institutes get Karelians from. I can barely pick Finland out on a map.

Incidentally, I have also considered the Dogo Argentine but wrote away that breed because of severe hip dysplasia.




ED's COMMENTS EDITED IN:

Joseph Xavier s a complete NUT CASE - I mean a mental case. He lives at 471 WASHINTON AVE
COLORADO CITY AZ 86021

Phone 206-978-4385

He claimed to live in Canada and is in fact living in a strict mormon community that practises poligamy. On a scale of 1 to 10 he is in the 10 range for crazy people who have contacted us over the years

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This guy is completly nute - he is a mental case

I grew up with hounds(black and tan, redbone, blue tick, beagles, etc) that hunted with us and would run many game animals, mostly squirrel and deer, but also including wild boar, bear and wolves although we didn't shoot the wolves or bears...but none of them were equiped to deal with a bear by itself. They might fight a bear for a very brief time to give us time to either shoot it or run, but none of them would fight it for very long by themselves...now if they're in a pack they'll fight it forever or until the bear/wolf runs.

I strongly suggest you carrying a gun with real bullets...if you have brown bears or mountain lions on your property you will be attacked--count on it. You are an easy prey item for both of them and they are not intimidated by you in any way. Trust me, in the dark with a bear bellowing and running in the woods around you, you do NOT want to not be armed to protect yourself.

I understand your wife's tree hugging mentality, but that doesn't work in the real world as I hope you never find out!

Use logic and think about it. A 70lbs dog against a 600lbs bear. A bear can kill a dog with one bite or one swipe of it's claws. A mountain lion can kill a dog just as quickly.

Get a gun and pray you never have to use it.

Just forget about the bear/cougar defense thing, and get the dog that'll do the work.

Let's consider two scenarios.

Dog A will defend itself in the face of an attack by a bear/cougar.

Dog B will run away from a bear/cougar.

If both dogs live the SAME life, and each encounter a bear/cougar...who do you think has the better chance of survival? My money is on the dog that runs. There's a chance a dog could run away safely, but there's no chance a dog will survive a bear/cougar attack.

If either dog ends up in the grips of a bear/cougar, it's going to die. It doesn't matter whether the dog is brave or not, because it will die either way.

Just my opinion.


EDIT: I'm a tree-hugger type, and I still agree completely with Mike. I wouldn't condone shooting the bear just for fun personally, but if you have a bear coming at you, what else are you supposed to do if you can't run to safety somehow?

 Quote: angela burrell

Carol is correct when she says that you canNOT have both a S&R AND SCH-trained dog. They go against one another.

You need ONE S&R dog and another dog for SCH.

This conversation is starting to border on ridiculous.

Carol did NOT say that you canNOT have both a SAR and SchH trained dog. She said some groups won't accept that. I know of several dogs trained in both SAR and Schutzhund who do well in both. HOWEVER, you need a highly skilled trainer and decoy combination in order to make this work. You also need to focus your dog's "education" and foundation on SAR because peoples' lives depend on it.

I don't know how much SAR experience you have Joseph, but I'm gonna assume little to none (apologies if that is not the case). As I've said before on this forum, SAR is a very serious job. The expectations and requirements are tremendous. You first need to educate yourself fully on the requirements of SAR personnel and canines. THEN, you need to find out which breeds are most commonly used and SUCCESSFUL in wilderness SAR. THEN you need to select a dog from those breeds who diplays the potential to be trained for SAR work.

All of this bantering about these obscure breeds (and their propensity to be courageous around large carnivores) has nothing to do with the real purpose of SAR - which is to FIND LOST PEOPLE. If the only experienced SAR person near you trains only labradors and you need his training help in order to take on this very important mission (especially since there is a real need for SAR services in your area), THEN GET A LABRADOR. I know plenty of courageous labradors, including the one sitting at my feet right now. Coincidentally, he would have excelled at Schutzhund training (believe it or not), and he's the only dog in this 6-dog household (with 4 Malinois) who I would trust to protect me from anything.

Of course I don't want the dog to attack the bear!!! It will be ripped apart.

I could never kill a bear or a mountain lion. After all, I am the one who is intruding on its environment and my property is on what has been bear/lion territory for probably thousands of years. My wife feels the same way. Guns are out as we cannot shoot an innocent animal.

Do you really think we will send our beloved pooch to its death if we are unwilling to shoot an attacking bear??

I just want a dog that will do what the Karelian bear dogs do for the Karelian Bear Shepherding Institute of Canada or the Wind River Bear Inst.

The Karelian dogs (usually) work alone because otherwise they get into a fight with other dogs. The dog just chases the bear away as you saw from the video (that I won't re-post because the owner of this forum threatened to ban me if I posted video links).




ED's COMMENTS EDITED IN:

Joseph Xavier s a complete NUT CASE - I mean a mental case. He lives at 471 WASHINTON AVE
COLORADO CITY AZ 86021

Phone 206-978-4385

He claimed to live in Canada and is in fact living in a strict mormon community that practises poligamy. On a scale of 1 to 10 he is in the 10 range for crazy people who have contacted us over the years

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This guy is completly nute - he is a mental case

Joseph - this thread is closed.

DO NOT OPEN ANOTHER THREAD ON MY WEB BOARD CONCERNING THIS TOPIC - or it will be your last. You have opened two - you have posted you-tube links that are unacceptable to my web board.

If you have not got enough information her then find another web board. expecting a GSD or a Mal to do what these bear dogs or pit bulls do is ignorant.




ED's COMMENTS EDITED IN:

Joseph Xavier s a complete NUT CASE - I mean a mental case. He lives at 471 WASHINTON AVE
COLORADO CITY AZ 86021

Phone 206-978-4385

He claimed to live in Canada and is in fact living in a strict mormon community that practises poligamy. On a scale of 1 to 10 he is in the 10 range for crazy people who have contacted us over the years

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Frawley@leerburg.com

http://www.leerburg.com