Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Is the operant conditioning an effect of pack behavior, or is pack behavior a function of operant conditioning? Does it matter - the result is the same. The boss gets his way, doesn't matter if "the boss" is human or canine, IMO. At my house, the boss is human.

I agree but I think we muddle the main issue, training, when we start throwing out terms like dominance and pack structure. I shudder to think how many dogs have been shaken, rolled, or hit for being "dominant" when they just haven't been properly reinforced.

 Quote: benjamin colbert

I agree but I think we muddle the main issue, training, when we start throwing out terms like dominance and pack structure. I shudder to think how many dogs have been shaken, rolled, or hit for being "dominant" when they just haven't been properly reinforced.

This whole paragraph kind of lost me. Are we on a different topic?

Is it maybe addressing training philosophies rather than the concept of pack structure?

That's a separate issue.

Obviously you have to teach the commands first in obedience training, before expecting the dog to comply (even the most willing dog).

However other issues - pack issues - need no training for a dog to understand. Instigating aggressive behaviour for one.

The alphas determine who and when to fight and when NOT to fight. If you have a dog who respects your rank, he will INSTINCTIVELY knock off aggression towards a human or dog when you tell him to.
No training (in the operant conditioning sense of the word) is required here. If the dog ignores rank, you immediately go in and deliver a meaningful correction.

It works instantly on a dog. Try that with a cat and tell me this isn't a genetic trait.

Kori: I'd recommend going over Ed's articles again. STUDY them, and understand their meaning, don't just skim through them. Sounds like you still have a lot to learn about pack drives if you're asking questions like "which came first etc.".

No offense intended to anyone, but come on. Even a complete beginner to dogs can see just how obvious a dog's pack drive is.

I can see where one could question which drive is causing the dog to behave the way it does in certain training circumstances, but to discount the HUGE impact of pack drive on a dog's behaviour is complete foolishness.

No Benjamin,
Study the theory. The pack is a dymanic thing. It never remains static, there is always another dog vieing for higher statis. Thats why for the most part we all need to stay on top of things with our dogs. They have a tendency to pick up any authority left laying around. It's pack theory, instinctive, they want to move higher in rank position. ie. better food, more comfort, more control of their immediate wants, etc, etc. Anybody with even passing knowledge of dogs know this fact: They will take control if a higher pack member does not. It's instinctual. They can't help themselves.

My brain hurts.
Call a vet!
Randy

Out is a training issue. If your dog isn't outing it isn't because he doesn't know who's boss its because either he doesn't know what you're asking in that particular circumstance or because because he hasn't been properly reinforced (i.e. not enough reinforcement, inconsistent reinforcement). Alpha rolling him, even behavioral lifestyle changes (crating, NILIF) is not going to fix a bad out if you are not properly training.

Have you ever tried "outing" a highly rank dog who is perfectly proficient with the command? One who will "out" reliably for a handler whose rank he respects?

And once you out him (assuming you can deliver enough force to make him spit out the prey item), try reaching in and taking the prey away from him.

I hope to god for your sake that the dog has a clear respect for your rank, otherwise... well, it'll be the quickest way to show you rank drive in action.

(Now don't actually go and do this, at least without ample protection and the presence of someone who actually understands rank drive and knows what they're doing...)

Yuko,
Cats are mostly solitary creatures aren't they.
What would account for packs like lions? They're the only cats I can think of that 'pack'. Know of any others?

Randy

 Quote: benjamin colbert

I shudder to think how many dogs have been shaken, rolled, or hit for being "dominant" when they just haven't been properly reinforced.

First of all, being shaken, rolled or hit is wrong for ANY reason, IMO. It doesn't matter if the commands were reinforced or not, whether it's for pack rank or not. This is not how I establish a higher rank with my dogs, I'll tell you that.

Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but it sounds like what your describing comes closer to abuse than establishing or enforcing a higher rank.

I see pack & rank as another way of saying "respect." Being a higher ranking "pack member" is not the same thing as being the class bully. Working for people you respect is different than working out of fear of retribution.

And for the record, I do believe pack structure plays a vital role in how people live with and train their dogs. And correcting for rank issues is not the same thing as correcting for an improperly learned (or reinforced, as you say) command.

Let me ask you something...

You're trying to "reinforce" the out to a dog who already has in his mouth the only thing he wants...let's say it's a rabbit. How are you going to reinforce that with a dog that thinks he's higher in status than you? Why on earth would he give that up to you? He's already got his reward in his mouth!

And pack drive and motivational obedience training are not mutually exclusive, btw. It seems like you're saying they are. They actually reinforce each other.

Edited by Amber Morgan (12/28/2007 08:04 PM)
Edit reason: clarity, I hope!

Randy,
I've not only read the theory, I've also read the numbers. The vast majority of studies are done on captive wolves for obvious reasons. There are two huge problems with this. Captive wolves, even those born in captivity, are adapted to roaming hundreds if not thousands of miles with a family structure, not strange unrelated wolves and certainly not multiple, fully mature animals. This means those in captivity are under an enormous amount of stress fairly consistently (you should look up stereotypic behavior in zoo animals).

Secondly and perhaps more importantly, wolves are not dogs. Not only are they a separate species but they have been hand selected and bred for a number of jobs and characteristics for thousands of years, not the least of which is sociability.

And you are right, anyone who can say the word dog knows about packs. It has become stagnant dogma in my opinion. The idea that a dog wants to be leader so it can have the title is fairly anthropomorphic. Dogs sense a vacuum in leadership in the way of inconsistent or non existent reinforcement and therefore take advantage of that in accordance with their own motivations. A dog may only need to be told "no" once when it gets on the bed. This doesn't make it less dominant than the dog who needs a leash correction once a week for the same offense, it means the former dog is less motivated by the couch. This same dog could easily be a food or object guarder.