Quote: lindsay janes

What should I do? What is your advise?
My problem is what breed can I do to compete it? That won't drive me crazy when it is time to relax?

Are you thinking about getting a pup (of whatever breed you decide on)?

I would say that I would research for as long as you need to in order to make a good decision. There were times when I first got Jesea where I asked myself "OMG what did I do?" but that doubt is gone now.

Did she drive me crazy at first? Well, to be honest, it wasn't really that she drove me crazy but she did make me question my abilities. I am not one to get rid of a dog, so I raised my level of learning in order to handle her correctly.

I wanted Mals, so I had to reorganize my life (as with having any pet or working dog) a bit in order to have them and to make sure they get what they need. They do not come in and adhere to our schedule, they come in and we work to find a schedule that fits our lives as well as the dogs.

I made mistakes with Jesea, that we are correcting and that I am also NOT doing with Ember.

I do not condone the breeding of any dog to make it "more fitting" or "more mellow".
If you want a specific breed, you need to make sure you have the time, patience and energy to raise and train that breed to it's full potential.

Now, with that said, here we go again, the Belgian Tervuren is a breed that has an "off switch" and looks like a long coated Mal.
Belgian Tervuren

If you would like any more info on this breed, PM me and I will send you some.

 Quote: Lindsay Janes

My problem is what breed can I do to compete it? That won't drive me crazy when it is time to relax?

One word .. Laekenois You may not compete in MR or FR to the top game in national level competition. But you will be able to place and show. As long as you train correctly.

 Quote: carol boche

Now, with that said, here we go again, the Belgian Tervuren is a breed that has an "off switch" and looks like a long coated Mal.
Belgian Tervuren

There's a really good chinese place in Tervuren, 10 minutes away.

Great Post Tracy! You couldn't have hit the nail more squarely in the head than that!

 Quote: tracy brown

Mike I've already seen a decline in Malinois. My local police bought their first pair about 20 to 22 years ago. Both great dogs. Extreme drive,good tracking and breath taking bite-work. The next 4 were mediocre. They did good bite-work but couldn't track worth a damn. Their scent work was piss poor. Now, they have 2 GSD's from Slovakia and Czech Republic. One of them from the dreaded show-lines. Guess what he can work. He may be a step or two slower than a Mal but he does all that is ask of him very well. it's all about the breeder,blood-lines and training. Personally I wish pet owner would stick to labs and poodles.

Another thing I am seeing is a pile of breeders breeding euro imports with or without titles that have not been handler owned and trained. They do test breeding with young unproven dogs and all of a sudden it is "oh oh that didn't turn out like we thought" and the public ends up with another 6-8 pups that are not suitable for work, that IMHO are not suitable as pets either as per your descriptions in your post.

 Quote: tracy brown

I've seen the numbers of Malinois Kennel expand quite rapidly. I would venture to say a high percentage don't know dick about genetics,drive,nerves or training. Whenever a increase like this happens, The breed sees the working quality and health go down. Just wait a few years and the increase of Backyard Malinois breeders and average pet owners buying the hot sport, work and protection dog. The inevitable biting of the owner's children, mail man or their neighbors child will happen. You'll see an even bigger decline in quality. When the back lash comes and it will come sooner or later. You will see Mal breeders offering a golden middle. Just like the GSD breeders did years ago, after a rapid increase in popularity and publicized bites.

I just hope that the working Malinois doesn't ever fall into this trap. It's to bad that greed and unethical behaviour are hand in hand. You'd hope that John Q Public was smarter than that .... I don't hold much hope for that though.

 Quote:

The hyperness is not what makes the Mal a difficult dog to own. A border collie is hyper and any schmuck can own one of those.

Okay -major pet peeve - well bred working BCs are usually not hyper. Sport bred "win at any cost" BCs are hyper. To work stock you need a well-bred balanced BC. And BCs bred to work can excel in most working/sport areas. They are high drive and will work their heart out for you. The more that they are bred simply for agility, flyball or what not by people who don't understand the breeds working heritage, the more you end up with "crazy, hyper BCs". It doesn't help that they are cute, fluffy "smart" and the right size for a house pet either

Just as Mals should not be a "nervy" breed, BCs should not be a "hyper" breed.

LOL ok sorry, I am not a herding person, I only know of BC's what I have seen from dogs owned by people I know. Really cool dogs, but not an ounce of handler aggression or dominance

Lindsay, i think Carol offered some great advice. Take your time research the breeds you are thinking about. Ask FR and MR competitors using alternative breeds who and where they got their dogs. Hopefully, you can find a breeder who has experience handling and training their dogs. It is important to find a breeder who knows what you are looking for in a dog.

I liked what Carol described as taking on the responsibility of owning a Mal. Reorganizing your lifestyle to own a Mal. I kind of believe that is how it has to be in some respect. My Mal is from KNPV lines and a little over 3 years old. I do not compete with him, but he is definitely a Ferrari and if you are going to own one I believe you really need to learn how to drive them so you can limit the number of times you crash. LOL.

Although I do not compete, I train with him often, almost on a daily basis in some form or fashion. I find that when I work my Mal (mentally and physically) he is more apt to just lie down next to me while I watch television or surf the net when it comes time to slow down. I also have found that when I am remiss in giving him the proper attention he will become more restless. There have been some times when he was at ease during the day with not a lot going on, and I have been wakened during the night with him walking around doing "tours" throughout the house before coming back into the bedroom to his corner.

In times when other things are happening and I am not able to keep a proper eye on him, I crate him. He is secured and my peace of mind for his well being stable. When I am away at work, he is kenneled/crated. I am not above believing sometimes that a Mal would prefer to shred the cushion to pieces, rather than relax on it. He will not allow me to give him free range throughout my home whilst I am away. He has trained me to know better. He is definitely a thinking dog and is not at all above being able to learn and adapt. When he is boarded at the vet, the kennels and crates have to be additionally secured with lock or other device as he will open the kennel to let himself out. Sometimes they are just smart like that. I once put him in my room and closed the door while I left home for an errand or two. When I returned my Mal attempted to open the door that kept him in the room. When I opened the door I immediately saw white flakes of paint on the floor. Looking at the otherside of the door it was clear what had happened. My Mal pawed at the doorknob repeatedly in an attempt to turn it and open the door. We were both very lucky. I was lucky the damage was minimal with just a scratched door around the area of the doorknob that only had to be sanded and repainted, and we both were lucky that he had not done anything more extreme that could have caused him injury (like chewing through the door or the walls, or anything else. LOL).

My favorites breeds in times past were Dobe and Rottie. I expended more than 2 or 3 years of time and research before stepping into the Malinois arena of ownership. It has become my breed of choice for ownership, and maybe would like to own Dutchie someday. These breeds I like very much. I like the challenge of training with them.

I would extend to you an invitation to spend time being around other Mals and their owners/handlers before making your mind up on considering one. That, only if you were in the mind to have one. As I have read the posts, it is my presumption that you are probably not yet to the point of actually owning one and would really advise you against a Mal. Yes, they will most likely drive you crazy. I know mine has me a few times, but it is a psychological cost I happily enjoy when the insanity passes. LOL.

I prefer owning a dog that has drive to work and have no desire to own any other type. I tend to believe they are more intelligent and more enjoyable to have around. I also feel more at ease when having conversations with them as it does not make me feel I am wasting my time when talking to them. So far, the only rebuttals I have received back are nudges to be petted, licking, occassional barking or quizzical looks that seem to say "Yo, dude. Shut up already and throw that kong" LOLOL. Suits me just fine.

I am glad that several people suggested me a few different breeds that I can go with FR and MR. Like Laekenois, Belgian Tervuren, and few others. For now, I am going to do my homework and see which one of these I will go with. Like Cindy said, I will be happy if I go with much lower octane dog.

If I chose a malionis, there is no way I will rehome. I will be like Carol and re-evaulate what I'm doing wrong and find a way to meet its needs. If I chose a specific breed, it is my responsible to meet their needs in order to make them happy and stable.

Lindsay, while it is admirable that you wouldn't rehome the dog, sometimes it is best for the dog to rehome them if they are too much. I know it is difficult to comprehend what "too much" is to someone that has no experience with the breed... but "too much", as I said before, is not about energy levels or hyperactivity, it is about inability to handle a dog that is genetically preprogrammed to be incredibly aggressive and quick to bite people, including the handler if they do not know how to handle the dog. It is like giving a lion to someone that wants a kitten, the lion will eat someone that is not prepared to deal with a lion.

Ofcourse, there is a high probability that if someone were to go with a malinois that they would never encounter any of these problems, because there are so many breeders breeding watered down crap, but if you are "unlucky" then you may end up with alot more than you may even be physically capable of handling, and could be a dangerous dog in inexperienced hands.

This goes for everyone that is considering a Malinois -- make sure that you are buying what you are able to handle, and if what you are able to handle is less than what a Malinois should be, then perhaps consider a different breed so we can discourage these idiot breeders from trying to sell their watered down crap.