Quote: rick miller

I am talking about in competition--not during training. I have always wondered about this...

There are more subtle ways to cheat at Schutzhund

Like, playing ball with the dog in the parking lot right before entering the trial field, hiding the ball behind your back and having a friend take the ball away so the dog goes onto the field thinking you still have it.

Then theres dogs who dont grip properly on their first bite on the helper, they need a "warm up". So there are people who have a sleeve and do bitework with their dog before a trial.

Lots of little tricks you can learn to get your dog in gear before trialing. All legal too as far as I'm aware.

Let's change the name of this thread to "Tricks or Treats!" LOL...sure these things are legal...but wholesome?

The point I am trying to make is, how would this dog perform if it full well knew the ball was not going to come after the routine? Probably worse...

 Quote: Rick Miller

The point I am trying to make is, how would this dog perform if it full well knew the ball was not going to come after the routine? Probably worse...

In ob work, the idea behind my own tangible rewards, given consistently in the teaching phase, then less often, then only randomly, is : The dog does NOT know. If some surprise treat (of whatever type) doesn't appear this time, well, it's always a possibility!

And pleased words or a rub *are* going to happen.....

 Quote: mike j schoonbrood

Used correctly, food and toys are hands down the best way to train a dog. The problem is when people use the food and toys as a bribe, rather than a reward.

 Quote: jennifer mullen

i have a feeling luc's foster home used food as bribes -

Great post, Mike: the whole post. JMO.

If we want to discuss using tangible rewards, we should probably have the same topic in mind. I was talking about rewards, not (as Mike points out) bribes.

Not to say I have not used food as a lure or as a bribe -- I have done both. But to lump them all under one heading is a mistake, I think. They are different techniques, used for different situations. I do think that many new handlers (or maybe new to using food) fall into the "bribe" trap.

 Quote: rick miller

The point I am trying to make is, how would this dog perform if it full well knew the ball was not going to come after the routine? Probably worse...

It depends on the dog and the trainer really. In a competitive sport, every point counts. If showing the dog a ball before trial earns 1 extra point, that is the point that could be the difference between high in trial, and 2nd place. The level of obedience expected from sport trainers is considerably higher than the level neccesary for a "normal" dog on a day to day basis. A dog getting into position a little tighter and quicker affects total score. Perhaps the dog would be absolutely fine without seeing a ball, but that extra kick brings that "good" OB up a notch closer to perfection.

I use food/ball/whatever to train & bring up drives and compulsion for the "I must everytime" that my dog understands. My dog shows much joy i nthe work. It's all about balance and being flexible in your training because nothing works on every dog in every situation. There is no magic bullet.

There are dogs that need to hear the whip just before doing ob because it fire up their drives and makes for a better picture, doesn't mean there's anything wrong with that at all.

The thing is, these little tricks do make the difference in points, but these same dogs will work just fine off the field too, it just won't be as flashy, so if your question is will these dogs work without the ball YES- it just won't be as pretty!

I believe she is refering to a show here called
"At the End of my Leash"

I personally don't like the guy orhis methods.

As someone else mentioned.....I don't agree with trainers that say only one thing should work on a dog and only stick with that.
Each dog is different and a good trainer would be able to discern which methods work better with each dog depending on said dog.

thanks for all the points of view. Brad,the show is called "At the End of My Leash" it's on Monday nights on Slice. I think it airs a couple of other nights. Interestingly enough I signed up for his upcoming seminar in Ottawa on Feb 16th. Mostly I figure different points of view re training can't hurt, so I'll go and see if I can learn anything different. From what I've gathered most of the people who listen/subscribe to his methods of training are strictly 'pet dog' owners. I keep wanting to post the link to Ed's site there but I don't think Brad would appreciate that

With Bayley I find she will either work for a treat or a toy and it doesn't take more than a few repetitions for her to learn and then I don't bother with the treat anymore and switch to tossing her a ball.

 Quote: connie sutherland

Not to say I have not used food as a lure or as a bribe -- I have done both. But to lump them all under one heading is a mistake, I think. They are different techniques, used for different situations. I do think that many new handlers (or maybe new to using food) fall into the "bribe" trap.

ok, as a new trainer....i mean, i look at luc and he's a happy goof. so i base how we trained as working for him on that (and my hands have stayed intact, heh). teagan definitely doesn't work the same way - i've used treats for normal commands, but my needing to introduce them into marking her urination is an example of how praise just isn't enough for her.

so as a newbie - what differentiates lure from bribing from praising? luc's foster home, when i visited, basically gave him treats constantly, for anything. he practically got treats for taking treats - and once they knew i was going to adopt him, they piled it on even more, so by the time he came to me (a week and a half after i first met him), even if i wasn't hand signalling, if my hand was near him, he tried to eat the food (whether or not it existed).

so i can see having a dog move upward into a sit by following the food....that would be using it as a lure? vs. bribing....would be what?

i'd really like to get more solid on dog training techniques, so i'm interested in this, b/c i'd like to eventually have dogs that do work.

i love training w/luc b/c we bond and have fun and i adore him beyond all belief and i'm going to do the CGN with him, and after my races are done, hopefully track with him. i've already said why i moved away from treats with him, and as a hardcore shelter dog, toys mean nothing to him. teagan is again different and even beyond treats or praise, when i first got her, i thought she knew no commands, until the day i watched her basically decide that i was allowed to tell her to sit. since then, treats have been effective, but i try to use them as 'follow the treat into a down....hold for X amount of time' and then she gets the treat. is that luring? bribing her to hold? i've read some of the stuff ed has posted on the site and i've started to round out my dog behaviour/training books (yay birthday) but i'm not sure i have a solid understanding of the difference.

edit: and i should note, while i try to train positively for both dogs, they both have been corrected, but that's really for behaviour issues....luc's territorial aggression when i first had him, for instance, and teagan's aggression towards mostly dogs but under the right circumstance (aka flat collar) people as well)

 Quote: Jennifer Mullen

So as a newbie - what differentiates lure from bribing from praising?

Bribe: Holding a treat as an incentive and showing the dog as you give a command . Often the dog will only comply if the treat is visible.

Lure: Moving the treat to achieve an action. Holding it above the head for a sit, or dragging it down to the ground for a down. Leading the dog into a heel position.

Reward: A treat for obeying a command. It can be given from the bribe or lure, but most important is the reward that the dog does not know is there. A treat that was hidden in your pocket well before the command was given. There is less expectation. It can also be a toy or just praise.

Praise: A type of reward.

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Jessica