Quote: Nora Ferrell

What is your occupation/background.

There is a Mod Bio section.

And back to the thread ....

Thanks, Connie. I have looked over those sites and will read further. It just seems like so much food and I have such a little dog. I guess there is way to figure out smaller amounts and I will probably at some point in the near future attempt the raw diet. But for right now, I would like to feed her as best as I can and my choices are limited in my small town. (yeah, yeah, I know, I know, feeding her raw would probably be easier with fewer shopping choices here) That's why I wonder if I could mix the kibble with, say, cooked chicken from a can, or tuna or beef, etc. And my thinking was, with the kibble, it already had vegs, omega, fat, etc.

And, Debbie, thanks for the input, too.

I don't know if I can handle a complete prey diet. Although I am sure that would be optimum for a prey animal. I was raised in the country and we always had dogs, also pigs and chickens, so I have experienced dogs actually cathing their food and eating it, but I don't think I can manage that, at least not for now. I know it's not supposed to be gruesome, but right now I'm not ready to feed her anything intact.

But after all these years of vets and other experts saying don't feed from the table, what this web site actually promotes is doing just that, except to do it raw, if I am reading all this correctly.

So that I can gradually switch, though, is it bad to gradually mix in cooked meats with the complete kibble or the somewhat natural pouch or canned?

 Quote: nora ferrell

So that I can gradually switch, though, is it bad to gradually mix in cooked meats with the complete kibble or the somewhat natural pouch or canned?

Canned meats and fish are generally loaded with salt.

But more important, even if you got the unsalted versions, you would be giving boneless meat. That is not OK unless it's a very small part of the diet.

The crucial calcium-phosphorous ratio is very simple, because it's the ratio of meat to bones that, say, a rabbit or a chicken
"comes with."

About the table food: I think begging at the table is a bad thing to allow. But beyond that, food is food. Dogs need meat and bones and some organ meat and a small little bit of produce (like green tripe or well-mooshed low-sugar, low-cellulose green vegs to make up for a lack of green tripe).

They need some fish oil and E because of the lack of Omega 3s in modern slaughter meats.

In other words, they need food.... like people do, except different macros.

 Quote: nora ferrell

It just seems like so much food and I have such a little dog. ... And my thinking was, with the kibble, it already had vegs, omega, fat, etc.

Did you look at the photos of dishes of food? Nothing has to be "intact," as you phrased it; those were the same chicken quarters that you would buy for yourself.

Many board members (myself included) feed fresh raw food to both big and little dogs. Chicken backs and necks, for example, are soft-boned RMBs. I even feed raw to an adopted senior with many missing teeth. I have the legs ground up and the front part left as-is, and he wolfs it down just the same as the ones who are tearing into quarters.

Have you ever read the "What's in Kibble" sites? I really would. You will be amazed.

As far as Omega 3s, most kibbles (if they have any at all) have short-chain Omega 3s from cheap flax and canola, etc. This is not in form that dogs can use; dogs lack the mechanism that converts short-chain 3s to the beneficial EPA and DHA. Even humans do it very inefficiently. There are Omega 3s and then there are Omega 3s.

If kibbles DID contain real fish oil, it would not survive the kibble process intact. It can't be heated once it's separated from the fish.

I think you would really like to read any of the nutrition books at
http://leerburg.com/books.htm

Many are extremely inexpensive, and you can choose from explanations of why fresh raw food is best (think of a wild canid and what s/he eats) to short simple books on how to feed raw.

The Schultze book is terrific for a jump-right-in thing, and Lonsdale and Billinghurst are great for exposing what's wrong with kibble and right with fresh food.

Connie, you guys are about to make a believer out of me. But for reasons of housetraining (which by the way is now going well) it will still be a very gradual process. I know it probably sounds strange to most on this forum, but this is all new to me. Or, maybe not, because for years vets have said put 'em on dog chow and that's all they need. I've seen the Oprah and Martha shows where their vets show you how to mix the chicken with rice and vegs and stuff but I thought it was cooked.

So what do you do? Just chop up a chicken leg? Bone and all or just chop the meat and leave the bone intact? Could I continue to feed the kibble (good grade)and mix in the raw. Would that balance out the 'crucial calcium/phosphorus ratio'?

The kibble I am feeding starts out: Chicken, brown rice, lamb meal, oatmeal, barley, duck meal, potatoes, carrot, cicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), tomato pomace..............yuca, kelp, Vit B-6, B-12. Says it has min crude protien 23%, min crude fat 13%, max crude fiber 3%, max moisture 10%, min omega-3 .5%, min omega-6 2% min fatty acids .5%.

Maybe I am just looking for something simpler where I don't have to chop vegs, add pills and potions every day in addition to chopping meat, foul, fish. Also, what about whole fish. Do you give them bones and all?

Have you considered THK (a dehydrated "raw" food) with RMBs added?

Or have you considered pre-made frozen raw?

If I were going to do a gradual switch and wanted to continue with kibble for the interim, I would give a kibble meal and a raw meal, but not a mixture.

It takes me an average of 5-10 minutes a day to feed fresh food, factoring in the occasional mooshing up of some produce with some unflavored live-culture yogurt and maybe an egg or two (shells and all).

The difference in the health of my dogs has been clear to me since Day One, years ago, when I was dealing with an adopted dog who had such bad allergies that her skin was bloody from scratching, she was deaf from repeated ear infections, and she stunk from yeast overgrowth. Her quality of life was horrible, because she could not even sleep because of the itching.

Fresh raw food was the most profound of all the changes I made in her life, even though I didn't know what I was doing and had ONE BOOK and no internet invented yet.

I truly would get one of the books. We are getting FAR off the title of this thread, so I would also recommend starting a new thread here:

http://www.leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/postlist/Board/12

In fact, I'd start reading anyplace in that forum, because it's all about fresh raw food.

 Quote: Nora Ferrell

The kibble I am feeding starts out: Chicken, brown rice, lamb meal, oatmeal, barley, duck meal, potatoes,

Out of the first seven ingredients, four are carbs. Of those four, three are grains.

This is not by any means the worst kibble I have seen; it's one of the better ingredient lists.

But choose any raw-feeding site or read Cindy's grain question on the Q&A or order any of those nutrition books. You will discover that grains for dogs are a cheap filler and not something they need or are designed to process.

P.S. I would be giving salmon oil and Vitamin E with the food you are feeding.

Edited by Connie Sutherland (02/27/2008 03:33 PM)
Edit reason: P.S.

Where do you get salmon oil? I've never heard of it. We don't even have a General Nutrition Store here, Wal-mart is the closest thing. Would it be in the vitamin dept. The vitamin E, is it the same one that humans use? The one in a pill?

Thanks

 Quote: Nora Ferrell

Where do you get salmon oil? I've never heard of it. We don't even have a General Nutrition Store here, Wal-mart is the closest thing. Would it be in the vitamin dept. The vitamin E, is it the same one that humans use? The one in a pill?

Thanks

I'm sure Wal-Mart has both, since I know that Costco does.

You can easily buy fish oil and E, and you can certainly use the same ones humans take.

You can also order it online.

http://www.leerburg.com/47.htm

http://www.leerburg.com/53.htm