Quote: Susan Shott

Of course it's not the whole board's opinion, and there were posts that pointed out the futility and unfairness of trying to change the dog.

At the beginning of the thread when most of the misunderstanding was going on.

 Quote: Susan Shott

there were also a lot of posts advocating changing the dog's friendliness, including a post that recommended e-collar corrections and a post that suggested bringing such severe conflict to the dog that he might go into avoidance. All to punish a dog for a temperament and behavior that would make him an absolute gem elsewhere.

About the avoidance...I would have to hear her (Angelique?) clarify what she meant. From past post and conversation I have had with her on here, I feel safe saying she meant no harm to the dog. She knows dogs. I would like to hear exactly what she meant. Another misunderstanding I bet.

About the e-collar...Sounds like any correction that someone would give a dog under distraction. No different than correcting your dog for starting to run off or not coming when called. When one isn't trying to do what you do with dogs, people can be a distraction. You said your dog was different about being able to have contact with people while working. Some dogs can't do that and might need correction via flat, prong, or e-collar.

Hopefully this can be ironed out before it turns into 9 pages of confusion like said thread.

Guess I am a little confused, also. Just because someone doesn't want their own dog to love everyone doesn't mean they do not like or respect service dogs.

Not wanting super friendly dogs is based off of working (protection/sport) ability or piece of mind that your dog will at least bark and not lick the hand of the person that breaks into your home.

Super friendly would be a flaw in a "guard dog" the same as territorial or dominant behavior would be a flaw in a service dog.

What is undesirable and not wanted in a dog depends on the tasks required of the dog in the sport or venue its owner chooses. So just as some here do not want dogs that are soft and super friendly for SchH or PPD work, you would not want dogs that were high drive and dominant for service work.

I am fairly sure everyone I know enjoys a friendly dog, that includes myself. Just because I don't want one doesn't mean I don't like them.

 Quote: Michael_Wise

.... Hopefully this can be ironed out before it turns into 9 pages of confusion like said thread.

It won't.

 Quote: Jennifer Marshal

Just because someone doesn't want their own dog to love everyone doesn't mean they do not like or respect service dogs.

'Zackly. I think it's generally clear that the right dog for the job is the goal.

 Quote: jennifer marshal

Just because someone doesn't want their own dog to love everyone doesn't mean they do not like or respect service dogs.

Of course not. But in the thread mentioned, the owner wanted a PPD, was bitterly disappointed when she got a super friendly dog instead, and ranted that the dog was the village idiot, among multiple other insults. This reflects a very hostile attitude toward the super friendly temperament that is essential for an assistance dog.

A very different response would be "Sh*t! Not what I planned on. Still--what a lovely temperament for a different home or as a therapy or assistance dog. Time to find the right home for this dog so he'll be cherished and I can get the PPD I want." Or: "Not what I expected, but still a fine, lovely dog. I'll enjoy him for what he is, and get him a GSD girlfriend who is suitable as a PPD." These sorts of responses respect the dog for what he is instead of trying to make him what he isn't.

It's kind of like wanting a son who will be an athlete and getting a poet instead. The disappointed mom could rant that her son is the village idiot, a sissy, etc. and punish him for writing poetry, then argue that she's not trying to change his personality, only his behavior, and she really has nothing against poets--she just doesn't want one in her house. But I wouldn't buy it. And if people chimed in with helpful ways to punish the kid for writing poetry, I'd wonder why they didn't just tell the mom to knock it off and accept the kid as he is.

Susan, I read the first page of the link you provided. I can see why you were upset by that person's comments - however it seemed everyone else was kinda steering her away from that viewpoint. And the thread was a year or so old.

As much as it makes me cringe, I get the impression sometimes that certain people view their pets as possessions instead of sentient creatures. They think it's a car off the assembly line instead of an INDIVIDUAL that has it's own personality. This is the kind of person who treats their horse, dog or other animal like a car or vehicle to their goals. And if the animal doesn't fill the pre-concieved notion they become angry and try to 'make' it that way or sell it in disgust. Breed standard and individual reality sometimes diverge.

HOWEVER, I can honestly say that so far all the threads I have read, everyone seems to REALLY value their dog for who he/she is and has worked very hard to ensure they got the 'right' one for the job and set it up for success. I like romantic lovers who will pretend to be tough when the doorbell rings. Others want a real landshark...depends. I am very sorry if you got the impression that a sweet dog was a 'village idiot.' Therapy dogs and 'professional lovers' fulfill a very important and neccesary part of our society.

Susan - you don't know Judy I happen to like her and have talked with her about her dog and another that she is working with. She didn't/doesn't want a PPD. That is NOT what that thread was about. She wanted her dog to not run up to every stranger he saw - did you miss the part where she said it was partially that she feared he might be stolen?

She LOVES her dog dearly. I don't want to make this into a knock down drag out. I am sorry you think that people on this board are hostile puppy haters.

You are still sort of grasping at straws turning one posters concern that her dog loved everyone into that and other posters not respecting or liking service dogs.

"This reflects a very hostile attitude toward the super friendly temperament that is essential for an assistance dog."

It does?

Simply because she didn't want her own dog to be so friendly suddenly becomes she thinks super friendly dogs are useless?

Dare I use this same thought process that if you were presented with a pup that you loved and had high hopes for of being a stable friendly service dog matures into a territorial somewhat aloof dog... and you are disappointed.. does that mean you hate all working dogs or dogs that have similar temperaments to that pup? Does it mean you would never in a million years even think to try and change the territorial behavior and socialize the pup more to see if it could become friendlier?

Not trying to pick a fight, but do you see what I mean?

To quote myself:
"What is undesirable and not wanted in a dog depends on the tasks required of the dog in the sport or venue its owner chooses. So just as some here do not want dogs that are soft and super friendly for SchH or PPD work, you would not want dogs that were high drive and dominant for service work."

Not wanting your own dog to be friendly or aggressive doesn't mean you think all dogs that are of the type you do not personally want are useless.

Just because she didn't want her dog to be as friendly as an assistance dog does not mean she looks down upon assistance dogs with the same temperament as her own dog.

And Again.. she loves Gunnar!

 Quote: jennifer marshal

I am sorry you think that people on this board are hostile puppy haters.

Awwww, come on Jennifer, she never said that and she read a thread that concerned her. And, much to her credit, she voiced her opinion in a better way that some do at times.
I think we should stick to quotes the person made and not turn it into something it is obviously not.

Judy had some great comments in her posts and for those of us that know her, understand the "won't bring Satan and his friends home" comments she makes to be funny and not meant seriously.

I am grateful she is here to help with the assistance dog part. That is gonna be great.

______________________________

I really hope that people realize that this was a misunderstanding and it is now turning into an all out discussion which is taking away from the other posts that are about training.

No offense to Judy at all, but are we really going to bring up and hash out that older thread now?

Susan -

I know what it is like to feel like your dog is not seen in a posative light, mine are even seen as a hazard. As I own two Pit Bulls sometimes the conversation on this board gets a bit tenuous, but it is always with an open mind and a real desire to seek solutions.

Often times I know I am guilty of a little venting before I get down to the real issue and I suppose that is what I took away from the thread you are referring to. From what I have seen over the past years on this board, I would be hard pressed to remember someone who did not have a great love and respect for the GSD...any GSD, as long as it was bred properly and well trained. But then again that would hold true for any breed of dog here at Leerburg!!!!

Susan
This would not have been so confusing if you had not just asked why the poster of this thread was so misguided instead of attacking the board in general.

The OP of the tread you linked in very confused in my opinion and owners like her can do a lot of damage to the reputation of a wonderful breed. Seems like the responders told her that she was off base (in a kind way). Even the founder of this board told her to leave well enough alone and enjoy what she had.

Totally see your frustration with this poster. Not sure where the leap to the comunity at large came in.

I am a first time GSD owner and ask TONS and TONS of newbie questions. I get fast curtious responces. I have been helped so much by this site and Ed's DVD's.

 Quote: Susan Shott

on command and without hesitation, savagely take down a child.

An unfair assessment as well, Carol