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Re: strange "come"
[Re: vagabund ]
#16758 - 08/01/2003 11:12 AM |
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well, I don't straight up disagree... but I feel there are always exceptions, enough in fact, to avoid making those kinds of "definite" statements.
I know that most people believe that when raising a pup that one should never discourage biting, only to redirect it... I hardcore disagree with that.
I have a NVBK line (Malinois) pup right now that is 10 weeks old. When he begins targeting my 5 yearold daughter, I absolutely make it clear to him, that he is not allowed to view her as a prey object. If that requires a light "punisher", so be it... he has plenty of drive and nerve to deal with that type of correction. I know I am about to be hammered for stating this.. but it is the way I see things. If a working pup cannot deal with light corrections at a young age, is it really that godo of a dog???
-Matt
(bite suit on, ready for a frontal attack)
-Matt |
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Re: strange "come"
[Re: vagabund ]
#16759 - 08/01/2003 11:31 AM |
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I'm right with you, Matt. I'll punish ANY behavior that I never want to see again - that includes trash raiding, eating my sofa, etc. I do my darndest to "manage" the environment to keep these episodes to a minimum, but I don't crate my pup every time I turn my back and I don't just redirect. I punish in order to extinguish the behavior I don't ever want repeated, and THEN I redirect to a behavior I do want. There is absolutely no squashing of drives, no bite inhibition, no fear of me fostered. On the other hand, behaviors that I will be developing for future use - sit, down, formal recalls, prey drive, etc... - those are STRICTLY taught thru positive means. Puppies are not made of porcelain; they are amenable to learning the "rules" of the family/household/pack. For me, that's how you end up with a fully integrated household member who doesn't need to be watched constantly or crated. Different strokes for different folks.
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Re: strange "come"
[Re: vagabund ]
#16760 - 08/01/2003 11:37 AM |
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Amen Lee!
Glad to see that I am not the only "Black Sheep" out there. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
-Matt |
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Re: strange "come"
[Re: vagabund ]
#16761 - 08/01/2003 03:11 PM |
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I am with you both on this, from the very beginning I would not allow the dog to bite my kids, I would "scruff" him, but like Lee says for formal recall he uses just positive as a puppy and this was what I was to referring to with being to young to use compulsion.
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Re: strange "come"
[Re: vagabund ]
#16762 - 08/01/2003 05:20 PM |
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positive while teaching..... yes
punishment while proofing... yes
can you proof at 3 months?? I think that depends on the dog, and the individual trainer's abilities and fluency in negative reinforcement.
What I think Lee meant (feel free to correct me) was that she would not use avoidance training on a puppy in order to teach OB type things that she will be asking for in the future (sit, heel, etc). But she would use it to extinguish things that she never wants to see again.
-Matt |
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Re: strange "come"
[Re: vagabund ]
#16763 - 08/01/2003 06:33 PM |
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Originally posted by MattMoore:
positive while teaching..... yes
punishment while proofing... yes I'm a stickler for correct terminology, so.... punishment while proofing FOR ME would read negative reinforcement for proofing. I don't use punishment for proofing learned behaviors.
Originally posted by MattMoore:
What I think Lee meant (feel free to correct me) was that she would not use avoidance training on a puppy in order to teach OB type things that she will be asking for in the future (sit, heel, etc). But she would use it to extinguish things that she never wants to see again. Here, the correct term would be punishment. I use PUNISHMENT to eliminate behaviors that I don't want to see again, not negative reinforcement/avoidance. I punish behaviors that I want to see disappear permanently, but of course it is gauged to the age of the pup.
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Re: strange "come"
[Re: vagabund ]
#16764 - 08/02/2003 02:35 AM |
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Terminology and understanding K9 psychology is critical for the novice dog trainer’s proper application of reinforcements. Punishment training usually occurs after the behavior that it is suppose to correct and therefore can not be avoided. Timing is the critical factor that determines negative reinforcement/avoidance training. Punishment training isn’t appropriate for my dogs or puppies.
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Re: strange "come"
[Re: vagabund ]
#16765 - 08/03/2003 08:42 PM |
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Originally posted by Lee Baragona - Sch3FH2:
Originally posted by MattMoore:
positive while teaching..... yes
punishment while proofing... yes I can appreciate terminology.. what I was referring to was using punishment to extinguish other behaviors while prrofing a learned behavior.. ie. You tell the dog to "come" he sniffs a tree and stops to mark, you could use a punisher to extinguish this unwanted behavior while recalling, no??
I realize that the line between R- and a punisher is the context of the behavior and the stimulus.
an e-collar stim can be a punisher (P+) or a Negative reinforcer (R-) depending on how it is applied.. But in either example, the unwanted stimulus must occur...
But you are correct, in your above statement <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
-Matt |
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Re: strange "come"
[Re: vagabund ]
#16766 - 08/03/2003 08:44 PM |
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Originally posted by Alan Carlson:
......Punishment training isn’t appropriate for my dogs or puppies. Alan,
could you expand on your statement?
-Matt |
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Re: strange "come"
[Re: vagabund ]
#16767 - 08/03/2003 09:22 PM |
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