I see Vince,

I read that article and that is what I have done through the beginning when I got him, we started with the rag/whip, then small tug then bigger tug, and now sleeve, he is very mouthy now adays and very confident, he thinks he is the big dog on the field, if I don't work him for even a day he is all over me biting away, trying to get me to play the game. Alas now I am confused....

To be honest, I feel as if I should just continue as I have been with a few minor changes, and thoes changes would be.

1: Let him win right away with the escape, with no "play fight" ( I will note here that he has never dropped his bite with aggressive posturing or hackled up, he is very confident and calm when it comes to this, as I started "motion" training" from the git, he actually usually bites harder when touched, but I have never had the helper try it, just myself)

2: Do escape training once a week, 3-4 escapes.

I have lessened the bite work already since I got the Benhard video and we have been doing a lot more focus work through drive, which I feel more important at this point in his training.

Do you have any further suggestions?

I read the article you mentioned. About half of it I have no problem with cuz it's nothing but prey development and exposing the pup to new things (noises, being touched/stroked with the stick, etc). Chasing the whip tip is identical to putting a toy on a remote line and making the pup crazy chasing it. Personally, I prefer the toy on the line so there is something for him to grab and tug on, like the dummy work in the article. But when it gets into introducing the pup to the puppy tug, I have a lot of concerns - What is the owner to do if his pup is a natural muncher?? He's working alone, so how will he change that behavior? If he leaves it alone, this undesireable behavior will be steadily strengthened from continuous reinforcement. What if the pup DOES have sound sensitivity issues with the rattle or whip - I see zero advice on how to handle it. There's no information on eliciting prey drive while using the tug - it assumes the pup is already a prey monster from the remote line work, etc., but when the tug has less movement on the guy's leg, the lack of prey movement will cause the pup's drive to fall off - then what? Top level sch. trainers want the pup's first experiences in bitework on the tug to be IDEAL - bring out very high drive first, an optimal grip, and win at the appropriate moment. The pup learns extremely quickly what behavior brings the win IF there is consistency.

The article says it will teach a pup to be mouthy - that I believe, but we don't JUST want mouthy. We're trying to shape a very very specific behavior because that's what the rules require these days. Also, the advice to keep working thru the teething is foolish in my opinion. The comment is made earlier in the article that one accidental stick hit could ruin a pup for life - yet it's ok to play tug with a puppy who's got aching teeth hanging by a thread?? Losing 6-8 weeks for the pup to teeth is negligible in the life of a dog that is going to need upwards of THREE YEARS to be fully trained to his potential.

When I lived in Germany, my club did bitework with pups once they had finished teething; however, the work was very focused and very short, and the helpers were terrific. Of course dogs can be worked from 6 months on and become wonderful dogs - there are a millions roads to Rome. But here in the U.S., where quality helper work is sorely lacking, the biggest mistake most people make is overfacing the youngster. There is NEVER any harm from waiting for the dog to grow up, but huge harm can be done to the pup's confidence by working him too hard, too soon.

One thing that distinguishes Ed from almost every expert trainer I have met over the last 10 years of training is that his ideas and techniques are ever evolving. He travels all over the world and meets people from all types of backgrounds and expertise and incorporates this new information with his existing beliefs. On a few occasions this called for a radically different approach then he previously held. Compared to most of the stubborn “old timers” in the game this leads Ed’s opinions to be more accurate and modern then most. This article was written many years ago. I read it almost ten years ago so it is at least that old. Since then he has produced dozens of intense information filled videos and too many articles for me to mention. The point of the link was to give another perspective to people to use when they make their decisions. To go over each of your points and explain Ed’s latest approaches would take much too much time but I will mention one thing that I think is vital to this discussion. Many if not most of Ed’s audience do not have access to any helper and even fewer to an experienced one. So some of your concerns are unavoidable to most. I will though stress to everyone one point that you made and I have tried many times to say the same thing: “But here in the U.S., where quality helper work is sorely lacking, the biggest mistake most people make is overfacing the youngster. There is NEVER any harm from waiting for the dog to grow up, but huge harm can be done to the pup's confidence by working him too hard, too soon.” This is a critical point to understand.

Lonny:

Since you asked for advise I will give it. You are moving way too fast. The escape should not even be started until the grip is where you want it. I would take a step back and refocus my approach.

Ok,

Thank you for your advise! For once I have nothing further to add! Hahaha

Good thread guys. Topic closed.