Thanks so much for the advice, Connie.

I'm not real sure how to train for quiet. The most I have done, so far, with this is, when she is quiet I will quietly priase her and pet her and say good girl or I like that or something else calming.

But, not sure exactly how to get started with it.

She seems very bright and quick with the other training we are doing. She does sit, down (finally got that pretty good), place and touch.

Any ideas on how to start the quiet?

Thanks, again.

(ps - Sometimes subtlety doesn't work with me and I gotta be hit over the head with it. Still feel guilty over the aversion thing because althoug it worked a little it didn't do what it should.)

Did I give you the marker training link? Do you know the concept of marker training?

I'm just assessing where to start.

But it's easy and you can't go wrong. (You can make mistakes, but nothing you can't fix.)

 Quote: nora ferrell

The most I have done, so far, with this is, when she is quiet I will quietly priase her and pet her and say good girl or I like that or something else calming.

This is good, but marker training catches the split second for the dog when the wanted behavior is happening. The dog gets the marker EXACTLY when she is doing the behavior that will earn her a great reward, and the marker is what gives her that instantaneous info.

Do you have a clicker?

If not, then practice a marker (I use "yes" in an upbeat voice) over and over in private. I'm serious. You want the marker to be always the same word (so you aren't using, say, "Good" and "Yes" interchangeably), but also the same inflection. The marker works best when it's always exactly the same, IME.

In fact, even if I'm teaching something very challenging to the dog, and I am planning a jackpot reward (like a piece of steak, say ), I don't yell "YES!" when he gets it. I use the same marker as always, but I make sure to give the reward right away so the dog really really gets the jackpot connection to the wanted behavior.

Your marker makes timing so much more precise!

Yes, you gave me the link. I also have the Basic Dog OB DVD.

I retrained myself with the marker training after I got the DVD. (I was one of those people that said 'sit sit sit'. So the marker training is now going very well.

But to mark for quiet. Do you mark quiet after she is not barking? For instance, she runs to the door and barks and no one is there. Do I wait for her to stop and then mark? Do I tell her 'shh' and then when she quiets mark it?

I need a starting point. When she is lying quietly or something like that is when I have been praising.

 Quote: connie sutherland

If not, then practice a marker (I use "yes" in an upbeat voice) over and over in private. I'm serious. You want the marker to be always the same word (so you aren't using, say, "Good" and "Yes" interchangeably), but also the same inflection. The marker works best when it's always exactly the same, IME.

In fact, even if I'm teaching something very challenging to the dog, and I am planning a jackpot reward (like a piece of steak, say ), I don't yell "YES!" when he gets it. I use the same marker as always, but I make sure to give the reward right away so the dog really really gets the jackpot connection to the wanted behavior.

Your marker makes timing so much more precise!

I mark with the upbeat 'Yes' and then when I give her the treat I say good girl. I have been improving my timing tremendously with the 'yes' and now after getting the DVD it has become so much easier because I see how you can mark anything.

But still, with the quiet, where do you start? After they quit barking? Or when they are quiet? If I am praising when she is quietly lying does she know it's for being quiet or for lying on the rug, for instance?

OK, you are doing fine to praise for the lying quietly or polite sitting or whatever. I try to remember to look for wanted behavior and praise, so that bad behavior is not the attention-getting behavior. I still say "Good potty" sometimes to seniors who have had "good potty" for years. Why not?

For this command (quiet, maybe, or no bark), here is what I would do.

When the dog is having a barkety spell, wait for a lull. The instant she is quiet, mark it. Reward. I would do this so that it's clear to the dog what triggered the marker. She was barking and when she stopped she was rewarded.

Are you clear on the marker's timing? And is the dog clear on the marker's value? It doesn't hurt to make sure by asking for a sit and seeing if you are marking the instant the butt touches the floor. And is the reward fast? And is it out of sight when you ask for the behavior and mark it?

Also, at first it's good to have the reward come pretty quick so that the marker and the reward are strongly linked. (Later you can increase the time..... not now.)

For now, I would have bowls or tins of good treats around, out of reach and out of sight but convenient. (Outdoors, I use the LB bait pouch, which is on a belt, and I wear it backwards to minimize any signaling I might do by reaching for it, or any "bribery" I might be doing by mistake by having the rewards right there in front. The pouch can be click-locked open -- no awkward fumbling behind you.)

Is this a clear picture? Tell me, if not.

Thanks, Connie, this helps a lot.

I think I'm marking pretty good. At first I was messing up because she kept looking at my hand. After I got the DVD I figured out I was doing that wrong. Now she is concentrating on looking at me because she doesn't know where the treat is going to come from now.

I was afraid I would be marking the barking if I waited for a lull. How long do you think is wise to wait? 2 seconds? more?

Also, with giving the treat after I mark, I am working on taking a little longer to give the treat (still within a couple of seconds) so I think it is clear to her. I have been waiting a little longer to give the treat (after the mark) to try to build up duration.

I don't keep treats scattered thru the house but I will now because that is an excellent idea. I have been using treats for marker training only when we were actually in a 'session'.

Another marker question - when you do a jackpot (for instance when I have her in a down and am trying to build duration) do you keep saying yes and giving treat or just keep jackpot treating with good girl after the down was marked once?

P.S. I don't even think you need a command word yet. After she's doing it, you can start with the command, and begin not to click unless you have used the word first.

But if the dog already gets the idea of commands (the word means to do the behavior), then you can use your command sooner. Quiet is harder than, say, sit, because with sit you can use the command just as you see that she was about to sit anyway.

Still, I saw Oliver's pattern quickly, with bark bark bark bark take a breath bark bark bark. So I was able to say "no bark" at the right minute pretty quickly.

Not everyone does this, but I reinforce the command with use. That is, I say "no bark," give marker when he stops barking, and reward while I quietly say "Good no bark!"

 Quote: connie sutherland

Still, I saw Oliver's pattern quickly, with bark bark bark bark take a breath bark bark bark. So I was able to say "no bark" at the right minute pretty quickly.

Not everyone does this, but I reinforce the command with use. That is, I say "no bark," give marker when he stops barking, and reward with a quiet "Good no bark!"

I can't wait until tomorrow to try this. This sounds exciting. I think she is getting the hang of the command (except for place) because I can see a definite difference in sit and down. If she doesn't get it right the first time, I do the Ed thing and say 'No, that's not it.' and that's when she goes thru HER bag of tricks. When I started doing this is when I notice she would look at me and watch me instead of where my hands were.

So - bark, bark, bark, she takes a breath, mark, treat, praise? That close together?

 Quote: nora ferrell

I was afraid I would be marking the barking if I waited for a lull. How long do you think is wise to wait? 2 seconds? more?

Also, with giving the treat after I mark, I am working on taking a little longer to give the treat (still within a couple of seconds) so I think it is clear to her. I have been waiting a little longer to give the treat (after the mark) to try to build up duration.

Yes, building duration is great. I didn't know where you were in marker training. Maybe with a challenging one like "no bark," you might gic=ve the reward pretty fast at first.

As for the duration of silence, I'd start with any silence that is in the middle of some barks. If she has barked twenty times with no marker and then stops for a second and is INSTANTLY marked, I think it will become clear. Then when she starts to "get it," you could start waiting for longer silences before marking.

I extend it slowly. Like "down," for example -- after the dog is doing it, then I start varying the down time required before the click. I used to slowly increase the time, but then I read a book (I think it was Karen Pryor) that said it was less frustrating and more fun for the dog to vary it once the dog has it ..... say, the first time you extend the time before you click, you might go ten seconds, but then two seconds on the one after, then twenty, then five.......