Quote: Lynne Barrows

Jennifer Marshall, please read that article and comment if you have time!

Sorry, I see that you did read it and comment!

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Don't get riled, I'm agreeing with you

Sorry Arik I wasn't riled at you, just the thought that people honestly think you can have a study of behavior that would apply to an entire population in a lab experiment or have one or two people go observe wild specimens that probably have no idea what they are looking at make decisions on whether or not dogs are social animals or have a social hierarchy.

Most people miss 75% or more of the body language and signals their dogs give them. Some of it is very subtle. I am 100% sure I dont see everything all the time and I purposefully look for it! I only have 12 years experience with dogs with the last years spent consciously looking for and at body language that animals express. And I know I have much more to learn and to see.

Sigh. I'm really not all that riled up anymore it just gets to me sometimes when someone tries to treat a dog like a car engine. There is no manual for a dog's year/make/model. There are too many varables especially in rescued adult dogs or even rescued pups to have one thing be the only right thing. I train dogs using my knowledge of their behavior and social structure but each individual dog is still different and I will approach things tailored to individual animals.

Reading this discussion reminds me of the three blind men examining an elephant. Not saying anyone is blind but if you know the proverb it will make sense. Three blind men met an elephant. One felt it's sides and said it was a large rock. Another felt it's leg and said, "No it's a tree". Another felt it's trunk and said, "Run! It's a snake!".

I too have seen wolves and dogs (not as much experience as some of you with either one but I've been around them both). I've never seen a wolf that is exactly like a dog nor have I seen a dog that is exactly like a wolf. They both have difference and similarities and no two of either one are the same either. I only skimmed some of the articles but I don't see where the one author gets the idea that "pack behavior" is driven by a constant struggle for dominance. I do see the point the author is making however that dynamics in a pack (dog or wolf) are a lot more complex than a purely alpha vs omega struggle for supremacy. I think the author in that article is really just stating the obvious.

"Pack Theory" isn't a specific doctrine it's a general guide. Dogs descended from wolves who are more pack oriented than otherwise and the early domesticators of dogs capitalized on that propensity. Imagine if dogs didn't retain any of their pack drive. They would be called "cats" To simply say that dogs are little wolves or that wolves are big dogs is oversimplifying to the point of being incorrect. On a whole however pack structure and the theory that dogs have pack drive is very correct. Watch a bunch of dogs, especially a bunch of siblings interacting and compare that to the pack behavior of wolves and you will see a lot of similarities but no complete parallels.

Oh, and there was a "pack" of feral dogs who lived in our area some years ago. I saw them personally and they did work and behave as a pack but that wasn't exactly like a pack of wolves. Again there is a difference between wolves and dogs but the fact that they both respond and interact as a pack isn't disproven by the differences.

I have very little knowledge in wolf pack theory or how it relates to me and my household but I decided to go out on a limb and comment here. I find the subject fascinating and enjoy reading about it as I have enjoyed this thread. Have I used the knowledge in how Ive raised my dogs? Maybe. I guess I never considered it.

The thing is, my current pack consists of myself, husband, 3 teenagers and one dog. I would put myself at the nucleus. My biggest concern is that everyone is safe and healthy. Friction is kept to a minimum and I have the last say (this is negotiable between my husband and me). So what does this mean?

Rules are clear and consistant, everyone is held accountable for their actions and what is beneficial to the individual is acceptable as long as it does not cause imbalance for everyone else. The dog is part of the equation not a seperate entity and the rules that apply to him are the same that apply to my kids.

The difference being, I protect the dog from making mistakes. My responsibility to him is differnt from raising kids. I need to let them make mistakes so they can learn to stand on their own two feet and learn how to fix their errors.

As far as rank drive, it matters, in how situations are handled and the amount of time and work required to create harmony and acceptance of what I want. This is a very fluid arrangement and adjustments are made to accomodate situations as they arise. But the bottom line is: I want what I want! Which is; what is best for my family and as long as I take charge and direct the goings on, I've gotten good results.

So do I need wolf pack theory to raise a stable dog or is being a clear and consistant leader enough?

Sheila, being a clear and consistent leader is following wolf pack theory

Matt - I agree that wolves and dogs are not 100% alike but the way they are raised plays a large part of that. Dogs are more.. hm.. malleable. In a general sense. Dogs have been bred to have traits that play into living with humans whereas wolves have not. Pack structure and social behavior is still there, but these other traits, like drive for example and paying close attention to humans, affect the way other behaviors are expressed. Dogs, for obvious reasons, have been bred to pay attention to humans and better/easier understand human body language whereas a wolf doesn't care too much and reading body language is based on their behavior and body language unless they have been handled and taught to understand some scope of it by a skilled and knowledgable person. Thing is there are not very many of those out there.

Some dogs are more intense than wolves are. Dogs like Mals - working breeds that have tons of drive. I've been around dogs with stronger rank drive than an alpha wolf. We've manipulated every trait of the wolf into our breeds to either increase or decrease what we wanted, that is why we have so many breeds. Some dogs are not much at all like a wolf. Some dogs are wolves on crack.

 Quote: Jennifer Marshal

We've manipulated every trait of the wolf into our breeds to either increase or decrease what we wanted, that is why we have so many breeds.

Some dogs are not much at all like a wolf. Some dogs are wolves on crack.

Quote of the week!



P.S. Pack theory, pack structure, and pack leadership (followed by timing) are the primary bases for my own dog handling.

Arik Kershenbaum,

Sorry this post temporally turned out to be about what I thought about the articles. I did not intend for opinion to ruffle any ones feathers. I stated what I believe and why I believe it.

I would describe a feral dog "pack" resembles a wolf pack in a similar way the Bundies resemble the Cleavers. The Bundies are group of with no clear leadership and very lose ties. A aggressive dog in a "pack" of feral dogs would simply not survive the constant struggle. The energy investment would be much much to great.

Connie, your question regarding what I meant by "pack driven people". I am talking about John Q Dog Owner who gets bit by his dog attempting to do a alpha roll.

 Quote: jeff cambeis

Connie, your question regarding what I meant by "pack driven people".

What question?