OK, I'm trying to get this straight in my head... You don't think that dogs can be naturally protective of their family/territory?

If my fila was operating on defense drive, then why did she run 50 feet along the back of my house to engage a midnight intruder who was not threatning her? The man was doing everything he could to try to get away from her, including repediatly hitting her in the face, and she never backed off. Was that defense drive?

Forgive me for being ignorant. I have no background in PP training.

I also recommend Francis or Lance at the compatible canine in Brookline.
Lance is the training director for the Inner city Schutzhund club ( http://www.ics-club.com/index.html ) and Francis works with the police regularly. They could definitely help you to evaluate your dog and train if that's what you decide to do. I think they will honestly tell you what they think your dog is capable of.

 Quote: Tammy Cohen

Lance is the training director for the Inner city Schutzhund club ( http://www.ics-club.com/index.html )

Ooops, I stand corrected. Lance is the Training Director for ICS. I just know of his outstanding reputation in bitework.

Thanks Tammy.

Katie

 Quote: alyssa myracle

"Fight" drive, the drive that a dog is in when it attacks the decoy, the suspect, or the midnight intruder, does not naturally exist in a dog.

Now I'm really confused. After soing some reading on types of Drives, I found something Ed wrote that is the total opposite of what your understanding is.

Ed wrote....

 Quote:

My definition of FIGHT DRIVE is this: “A dog has fight drive when his protection work carries the forwardness of prey with the intensity of defense. A dog with good fight drive is willing to engage a helper or suspect in every circumstance, under every condition regardless of training equipment being present or not being present. A dog with fight drive knows he can win every fight with a human that he get into. He is ALWAYS willing to carry the fight to the suspect.”

Fight drive is not something a dog can be trained to have. It is a genetic part of the dogs make up.

So is it a genetic trait or is it something that trainers develop? Please don't take this post as being argumentive, I am truly trying to educate myself.

Good luck with that, Tracy. Fight drive has been the star of many a long and contentious thread.

 Quote: tracy r touzjian

 Quote: alyssa myracle

"Fight" drive, the drive that a dog is in when it attacks the decoy, the suspect, or the midnight intruder, does not naturally exist in a dog.

Now I'm really confused. After soing some reading on types of Drives, I found something Ed wrote that is the total opposite of what your understanding is.

Ed wrote....

 Quote:

My definition of FIGHT DRIVE is this: “A dog has fight drive when his protection work carries the forwardness of prey with the intensity of defense. A dog with good fight drive is willing to engage a helper or suspect in every circumstance, under every condition regardless of training equipment being present or not being present. A dog with fight drive knows he can win every fight with a human that he get into. He is ALWAYS willing to carry the fight to the suspect.”

Fight drive is not something a dog can be trained to have. It is a genetic part of the dogs make up.

So is it a genetic trait or is it something that trainers develop? Please don't take this post as being argumentive, I am truly trying to educate myself.

Ed also wrote, immediately after the quote above:

"... it requires a dog to have considerable experience in training and maturity before he can develop fight drive. In other words, dogs don't just wake up one morning and have fight drive. It is a result of good genetic make up combined with good training to produce a confidence that the dog can win in every encounter every time."

"Good genetic makeup combined with good training" is probably key there.

Tracy,
There is the rare dog that will have such extreme defense and prety drive, such solid nerve, and such confidence, that it takes a lot to push it into avoidance. I would suspect that this was the case with your Fila. She was being territorial, running along the side of "her" house.

She was confident, knew you were nearby (you opened the door that allowed her out), and she took the guy down. I would wager that had you not been home, she would have responded differently.

Fight drive is the dog having a good time. The dog enjoys getting the bite, enjoys taking on the decoy. He's having fun. He's not fighting out of fear, defensiveness, aggression... he's fighting purely because he enjoys the game. He likes getting the bite, and he likes winning. He isn't mad at the decoy.

A dog doesn't naturally have this drive, because until he's been taught how to play, and WIN the game, he has no idea that it's fun. He will initially bite as a pup, out of prey drive. The sleeve wiggles, and his instinct tells him to get it.

Then, as he grows, he will fight out of defense drive. The big mean decoy makes him uneasy. It makes him nervous. It's menacing and taunting. He wants it to go away. This is the part of training when the handler stops being the decoy, and you start using a helper. Why? Because you would have a hard time making your own dog defensive and nervous, without destroying your bond with it.

Eventually, with good handling, and solid nerves and confidence, a dog that has been attacking the decoy learns that, "hey, this is fun!". The decoy isn't a bad man- he's just someone to bite, to fight with. Just as the dog sees his tug and says, "oh boy!", the dog sees the decoy, bad guy, etc, and says, "oh boy!".

He fights for the sake of fighting, and for no other reason.

Then we channel that love of fighting the decoy, into useful applications, either sport or protection.

Thank you Alyssa for the explaination. I have always been interested in PP and sport training. It's nice to be able to come here and ask questions and get thoughtful and experienced answers!

It's so funny Connie. When doing my searches on Drives online, it seemed there was many conflicting definitions concerning fight drive.

I have found the people on this web board tend to give great feedback, and experienced answers to the questions people post.

I'm glad to have found this place. There is so much to be learned from here.

 Quote: Tracy R Touzjian

Thank you Alyssa for the explaination. I have always been interested in PP and sport training. It's nice to be able to come here and ask questions and get thoughtful and experienced answers!

Now I will add that my experience comes from working as a Military Police soldier around Military Working Dogs, and that my husband owned and trained his GSDs and Rotties for French Ring Sport and Personal Protection for 15 years.

Due to the nature of my current military obligation, our current GSD will not be going into PP or any bite-work sport.

What I can tell you is, training and working a dog for PP, is truly a joy. It is a challenge, but you will learn so much about your dog, and yourself in the process, it is 110% worth it.