I think you are being too anthropomorphic (sp?), and underestimating the supreme importance of pack structure for dogs.

These are not children, and these are not people. These are dogs. Pack animals. They live by pack rules.

 Quote: Alyssa Myracle

I think you are being too anthropomorphic (sp?), and underestimating the supreme importance of pack structure for dogs. ...

And I strongly recommend -- urge -- learning about it here:
http://leerburg.com/308.htm

Ira, follow this link to a post I wrote that Cameron, and Mike responded to. Maybe it will clarify the issue for you.

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=17&Number=203338&Searchpage=1&Main=20170&Words=&topic=0&Search=true#Post203338

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

 Quote: Ira Victor

I think keeping them separated and working with them one-on-one is completely unnecessary

You are saying that working separately with a 4.5-month-old pup is unnecessary?

Of course not. When I'm working with him I keep them separated because she wants to take part too, and I can't work with her there. I apologize for my choice of words. I should have said PLAYING with them one-on-one is unnecessary. My fault, sorry!

 Quote: Peter Meaden

Ira, follow this link to a post I wrote that Cameron, and Mike responded to. Maybe it will clarify the issue for you.

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=17&Number=203338&Searchpage=1&Main=20170&Words=&topic=0&Search=true#Post203338

Yes. Succinct and to-the-point:

 Quote: Mike J Schoonbrood

I separate pups from adults till about 10-12 months old, and a lot of the time after that too just because it's easier when you have 4 high energy dogs. .... OB should always be done separately, as should playing with toys/fetch etc. .... The only time I play fetch with 2 dogs out is when I am distraction proofing one of the dogs that is in a down. It's unfair to the slower dog if the quicker dog snatches up the ball before he gets to it. At 8 months old I do not expect the kind of obedience that would control the dog under that type of distraction at all.

Despite all the talk about crating and keeping them separate, as I said in my first post she doesn't WANT to play if I'm not playing with him. She wants to join in once the play with him has started. If I crate him, she doesn't want to play anymore.

Otherwise, he's not at all aggressive towards her. And, since I've been following the advice Mr. Frawley gave in that article I linked to, he's gotten a lot better and I've been able to play fetch with her while he lays on the floor and watches.

If it sticks, problem solved!

 Quote: ira victor

Despite all the talk about crating and keeping them separate, as I said in my first post she doesn't WANT to play if I'm not playing with him. She wants to join in once the play with him has started. If I crate him, she doesn't want to play anymore.

This is one of the many reasons that SEPARATION would be better for BOTH dogs.

Your older dog doesn't seem to see you as worth playing with. Usually this is because it doesn't have the bond you seem to think that you have.

Separating at play and OB work will help your older dog be more interested in playing with you, the leader, as opposed to the puppy, who it is apparently choosing as a leader instead of you.

You wrote here asking for help, and it has been given. There are several people who are saying the same thing, and you keep insisting that is not the "way," even though you are having the issues - we are not. Read other topics here, other people have asked the same thing you are, and the advice is the same for them as well. Not only that, we follow this advice as well.

When you are working with a pup like this, you have to bond and establish good play with you, without squashing their drive. Too many corrections this young will only hurt your working relationship later in life. It would be so much easier if you can eliminate the need for corrections altogether. Do you want ANOTHER adult dog in your home that doesn't want to play with you alone? If so, you are giving away a valuable opportunity to establish a great working bond with BOTH dogs

We just came in from a half-hour play period outside and, for the first time, he let me play with her uninterrupted. She had her toy, he had his. She was content to be alone with her toy while I played with him, and vice versa. A couple of times he came over to play with us, and once he even took her toy, but the change from just a couple of days ago is remarkable.

As for the retriever, she doesn't want to play that much (at least inside... outside, she'll play for a while) because she's been slowing down over the years. Rather than play, she likes me to sit on the floor so she can lie in my lap while I pet her (and he doesn't interfere at all). She gets energized by him, sometimes, and I'd like to take advantage of it. She can't be crated anyway. She hasn't seen the inside of a crate for almost 12 years, except when she has to stay at the vet, and even then she gets so anxious she almost shuts down. When I train him, I put her in a bedroom with a cookie and some toys, but once she eats the cookie she keeps scratching at the door to get out and ignores the toys. Do you think I should really start doing that to her now, at this stage in her life?

Anyway, things have gotten a lot better around here in the last 24 hours, and the pup doesn't seem to mind being corrected more strongly at all. Whenever he's not actively doing something or napping he lies at my feet or follows me around.

I know I'm getting a lot of well-meaning advice here, and I'm not trying to be stubborn, but I can't help but feel that some of you folks see a bigger problem than there really is. Or, maybe I'm completely wrong, I dunno.

 Quote: Ira Victor

Do you think I should really start doing that to her now, at this stage in her life?

Absolutely. Dogs move on very quickly, and the more you act like its ALWAYS been this way, the more you will see you dog become stable, even with the crate. Structure is ALWAYS better. It may take a day or so for the dog to adjust, but if you actually gave it a real chance and stuck with it, no matter what, you would see a dramatic difference in your OLDER dog, as well as your pup.

 Quote: Ira Victor

Anyway, things have gotten a lot better around here in the last 24 hours, and the pup doesn't seem to mind being corrected more strongly at all.

This is huge. There are no other ways to explain to you how important it is to set the pup up to NOT be corrected, rather than acclimate it to being corrected. I hope that you are able to learn a little more about this stuff. Even if it's just so that you know what limitations you are putting on your dog for later.

 Quote: ira victor

We just came in from a half-hour play period outside and, for the first time, he let me play with her uninterrupted. She had her toy, he had his. She was content to be alone with her toy while I played with him, and vice versa. A couple of times he came over to play with us, and once he even took her toy, but the change from just a couple of days ago is remarkable.

Sounds like you had a good training session.

 Quote: ira victor

As for the retriever, she doesn't want to play that much (at least inside... outside, she'll play for a while) because she's been slowing down over the years. Rather than play, she likes me to sit on the floor so she can lie in my lap while I pet her (and he doesn't interfere at all). She gets energized by him, sometimes, and I'd like to take advantage of it. She can't be crated anyway. She hasn't seen the inside of a crate for almost 12 years, except when she has to stay at the vet, and even then she gets so anxious she almost shuts down. When I train him, I put her in a bedroom with a cookie and some toys, but once she eats the cookie she keeps scratching at the door to get out and ignores the toys. Do you think I should really start doing that to her now, at this stage in her life?

IMHO,I would say no, crating her now sounds like it would depress her, since you mention she shuts down at the vet when she is crated.
BUT, the pup is used to a crate, or am I wrong here?
My Dutch has full house "rights" and the other dogs will be crated (they are out when I am home to watch them), when training all are crated except the dog I am working and the Dutch stays in the house or a crate, PERIOD.
Trying to do a training session with one dog, with other dogs around is not good. Dogs would rather be with other dogs, therefore, we as the pack leader need to make sure that the time spent with other dogs is when we allow it, and not because the dog wants to do it.

 Quote: ira victor

and the pup doesn't seem to mind being corrected more strongly at all.

This is where I have an issue....correcting a young pup. And strongly at that. IMHO, there is no reason for a pup to be corrected during playtime, hence the reason play should be done without the other dog there. Until he learns manners and responds quickly and obediently the first time you give a command (which should be taught with positive reinforcement) then he needs to be separated from the other dog. There is a time and place for correction, but this puppy does not sound like he needs it.
If they can lay quietly in the room together with you that is fine, but not during training or play.

 Quote: ira victor

I know I'm getting a lot of well-meaning advice here, and I'm not trying to be stubborn, but I can't help but feel that some of you folks see a bigger problem than there really is. Or, maybe I'm completely wrong, I dunno.

I do not think you are wrong at all, and I do not think any of us are overthinking anything....learning not to "think' for the dog and put the dogs behaviors into words on what we assume the dog is "thinking" is one of the hardest habits to break.