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"Many herding experts say that some herding dogs (including most dogs in some of the herding breeds) are motivated to herd primarly through pack drive to control the livestock, whom they view as subordinate pack members. Not prey drive."

I think "pack drive" in the context of herding has more to do with the man/dog relationship than the sheep/dog relationship. IMO the term "pack drive" is misleading when it is used to describe an interactive relationship between prey and predator -- packs of dogs behave differently than flocks of sheep -- IOW sheep will never conform to the dog's "pack behavior" and dogs will never conform to sheep's "flocking behavior". However, the pack has a built-in rank order system -- or a leadership heirarchy. This is why "pack drive" is important in herding. But it's importance is in the man/dog relationship because it allows the shepherd (who CAN conform to the dog's "pack behavior") to be accepted by the dog as a leader.

IMO he dog LEARNS (is taught by the shepherd) to treat the sheep as subordinate members of its pack. However, it is the shepherd who IMPOSES that pack order (man-dog-sheep) and ENFORCES that pack order if the dog does not accept it or learn to respect it over time. Without training or education the dog would not naturally view sheep as pack members, subordinate or otherwise -- they would be prey.

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The tool to train obedience in the dogs isn't pack drive either, it is still desire to engage in the herding behavior.

If "genetic obedience" is defined as "a strong willingness to please the shepherd and to accept the shepherd as the leader", and, if one aspect of "pack drive" includes accepting man/shepherd as leader, then pack drive could be considered a tool to train obedience. JMO <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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It sounds to me like this genetic obedience you are referring to as a desirable trait in the herding lines is almost in opposition to the trait of handler hardness which is often selected for in lines bred largely for some type of protection/bite work.

The following is a quote from John Holmes regarding "hardness" in a herding dog: "A "hard" dog is strong-willed and the stronger the will-power of the dog, the stronger is the will-power necessary to control it. Many of the problems with which I have to deal arise through the dog having more will-power than the owner."

I like this definition because it doesn't limit or pigeonhole qualities used to define a "hard" dog and, most importantly, IMO it allows for balance in the dog's temperament. IOW a dog can have qualities associated with "sensitivity" and "biddability" and still be a "hard" dog on the job. This will-power is also what makes training the "hard" dog more challenging. You can't force this kind of dog to work with a "my way or the highway" attitude. You have to teach the dog via a cooperative relationship as opposed to an adversarial one.

Ellen quote, by Laura: "The shepherd was channeling her drive and energy into purposeful work to serve his sheep herding needs. The shepherd's encouraging, calming, directing voice kept him in constant contact with the dog -- he never gave her the opportunity to fall into a pattern of errors in performance."

LAURA!!!!, this is exactly what I'm saying. The dog working on the sheep is self rewarding by working the animals (Rewarding Predatory Behavior), the praise is a secondary reward that is helping to shape behavior. . .herding behavior. . .prey behavior.

The primary reason the dog is herding, the primary reason it continues to herd, is the prey reward, not the praise. The praise is a secondary reward, not as important to the dog as the reward of herding.

You can still shape behavior with a secondary reward, while the dog is self rewarding (herding).

The dog isn't herding because of praise!! Additional reward is helping to shape the herding behavior.

A dog without the primary predatory herding instinct can have as much genetic obedience as you want him to. . .still won't make him a herding dog. He has to have the drive for the work because that is the primary reward for the behavior.

Hold on, I didn't say that pack drive isn't a tool for training obedience and herding. . .If you follow the whole argument, I said it is a secondary reward to the prey reward.

You are using praise to help shape a behavior that is being nearly constantly rewarded.

This thread is in dire need of a move to continue this herding conversation.

I'm going to move the thread to the herding section and hopefully keep this one open here to continue the treat or no treat discussion.

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Hold on, I didn't say that pack drive isn't a tool for training obedience and herding. . .

No........you said:

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The tool to train obedience in the dogs isn't pack drive either, it is still desire to engage in the herding behavior. If a dog is screwing off, you don't let them get at the work. . .while on lead. . .or you put the dog up. . .whatever.

Hey, Bobby-booby, correct me if I'm wrong (as I'm sure you will :rolleyes: ) but you say "If a dog is screwing off, you don't let them get at the work. . .while on lead. . .or you put the dog up. . .whatever." Isn't that asserting your leadership role in the pack ....... OR ....... utilizing pack drive??? Negative maybe but pack drive ala leadership just the same.

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Originally posted by Ellen Nickelsberg:
I think "pack drive" in the context of herding has more to do with the man/dog relationship than the sheep/dog relationship. IMO the term "pack drive" is misleading when it is used to describe an interactive relationship between prey and predator -- packs of dogs behave differently than flocks of sheep -- IOW sheep will never conform to the dog's "pack behavior" and dogs will never conform to sheep's "flocking behavior". However, the pack has a built-in rank order system -- or a leadership heirarchy. This is why "pack drive" is important in herding. But it's importance is in the man/dog relationship because it allows the shepherd (who CAN conform to the dog's "pack behavior") to be accepted by the dog as a leader.

Welcome back the forum Ellen!! :-))))

The herding folks who speak of "bossy" "controlling" behavior in their herding dogs indeed talk about their dogs treating their livestock as subordinate pack members. While this is a generally accepted role that pure livestock guardian dogs (like Great Pyrenees) fulfill with their livestock, these folks are saying that it is a component of the herding dog's relationship with his livestock as well. Just as the balance of drives in protection dogs can vary between mostly prey to mostly defense to mostly fight (depending on the dog), they say the balance of drives in herding dogs toward their flocks can vary between prey and pack drives. I didn't believe this either when I first read about it, mostly on the English shepherd lists. There are a wide range of behaviors that ES have toward their livestock that are not predatory in nature, and have far more in common with the mothering/nurturing behaviors of a bitch with her puppies... pack drive.

Incidentally, there is a theory held by some in the herding world, including Donald McCaig, that herding breeds were developed out of the livestock guardian breeds (there seems to be little doubt that the LGDs came first). This theory says that breeds such at the English shepherd, who have dual herding and livestock guarding functions, are remnants of the intermediate form between pure LGDs (e.g. Pyrs) and pure herding specialists (e.g. border collies).

Laura

let me see if i've got this straight , in like simple stupid ( for my benefit ) terms .
a long time ago , dogs ( wolves , etc ) liked to hang around us because we weren't bad hunters and kind of sloppy eaters , so they got fed sort of by accident , but hey , food is food , right ?
after a while , not only did we hunt , but we kept our own animals to kill whenever the need arose , and when we prospered , everyone around cashed in , so whoever was hanging out scored too . besides , these critters ( the wolves ) weren't bad at keeping those other critters ( the sheep , etc ) in line , cause they , ( the wolves ) could run a he!! of a lot faster than we could .
over time , the whole process got a lot more civilized , but still , at the end of the day , the wolves ( our herding breeds ) got fed , despite how much fun they were having chasing those " succulent little meatbags " around the hills , which was a pretty good time . if you were patient , and didn't chomp the " meatbags " not only did you get a meal , but a warm dry place to hang out for the night . and that back massage , oh baby !
i used to think that food rewards were crass ,that you were cheating to resort to such a .... but i've since come to see that being the " hand that feeds" could have some definite advantages . obviously , it doesn't hurt if you're not a bad guy to hang out with either , but the guy who " signs the checks " holds a special place , human or canine .