Quote: Craig Brown

Thanks guys. The person who told me this knows what they are doing as they've been to worlds and achived some high scores in sch3 under top judges. This is why i'm confused.

Don't be, after all the most important thing I ever learned was there are many paths to the top of the mountain. Another good one is the only thing two dog trainers agree on is what the third is doing wrong!!!!

Thanks for the advice susan .I understand what you mean that's why it's hard to really comprehend what's good and what's not because every trainer will probably disagree with what the other training is doing and at the end of the day I need to listen to the one that will help me and knows my dog better than memmbers on a forum.

The thing is i could use methods from videos by top trainers but then i'd rather have direct help and assistance 4 times a week from a really good trainer that a 2 hour video from a world class trainer that's directed at millions of people.

Doesn't Ed promote flanking a puppy to get the out? Is this not pain? even more so that sticking your finger down the tongue to irritate it. Doesn't ed also say some dogs need to be choked out for aggression? How can you differentiate this advice?

Well connie I was interested in what other people's opions were. I wont just drop and change every time someone gives me advice otherwise every day will be a different training method... There's naturally a benefit from asking opinions etc but as I said above I have a great trainer who I usually have 4 sessions with a week and there's no ways that advice from a forum will ever allow me to get my first dog to sch3. He will. Advice is still very much appreciated but I can't come back from every tracking, obedience and bite session and put my problems up and hope to work throught them by people giving me advice. Maybe if I was more experienced and just needed to fine tune a few things but i'm a complete newbie and need as much direct help as possible.

Yeah, that's okay Craig as far as it goes.
One of the things I've learned over the years though enre to trainers and my dogs is: If I allow something to carry on that I'm not comfortable for whatever reason, invariably I'm sorry I didn't step up sooner then later. By the time I'd had enough of my dog regressing, I not only have to start over, but I would have to work out issues I would'nt have had to if I'd put a stop to it when I initially had doubts.
Take it for what it's worth.

I'll stand by my original assessment.
Randy

PS.
Reread Mike S. post on all the excuses for bad training he's heard.
Craig, you are justifying these things to yourself. Believe me, I've heard everything you just wrote before, down to the "he has 20 years experience" crap. I'm not some PETA fanatic, I don't think prong collars are cruel, I didn't just hang out at one Schutzhund club and think I know it all.

I know all those little quips and sales pitches... "oh don't talk about it on forums, those people don't understand anything beyond club level training. this is a controversial training method, other people won't understand. this dog needs this, he won't be consistent any other way. all other trainers train this way, the ones that say they don't do it behind closed doors, when nobody's looking, yank yank yank, then the dog comes out and looks good again." bla bla f'in bla.

I could go on and on about all the cliche excuses i've heard for poor and lazy training, and I could sit here and write out a 10 page essay on some of the complete bullshit i've seen done to dogs in the name of training, protected by the excuses I mentioned above. At what point do you say "this isn't training, this is abuse" ?? Or is it OK as long as someone with 20 years experience is doing it?

I won't even begin on the "this dog really is that dominant/hard/handler aggressive/psychotic/uncontrollable that he NEEDS this" stuff. Very few dogs in the entire world "need" this stuff, and half the time its because someone f'd something up in the first place.

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Doesn't Ed promote flanking a puppy to get the out? Is this not pain? even more so that sticking your finger down the tongue to irritate it. Doesn't ed also say some dogs need to be choked out for aggression? How can you differentiate this advice?

I'm glad you asked that last question.

Don't let a trainer turn you into a captive audience. You see this in just about every venue in which people in teaching positions get a little addicted to students being enthralled to their authority. Especially the "I've-been-doing-this-for-30 years" type. Unless it comes up as just general trivia, I roll my eyes whenever I hear that.

Chronology means nothing, good or bad, if one's ideas remain stagnant.

If your'e going to use Ed in your argument, I would suggest you follow his example. I can't think of a whole lot of people with his experience who continue to read, attend seminars, and try to improve his knowledge of training by at least remaining open to progressive ideas.

So no, I'm reasonably sure flanking puppies is off the agenda these days.

If you care about your dog, I would hope you'd want to first exhaust the alternatives to pain, stress, and conflict. That doesn't neccesarily imply I'm a hand-wringing nancy-boy about any sort of correction. I'm just saying explore the alternatives before some puffed-out veteran of the sport squares off and tells you how itiz.

thanks again guys. I think ed still believes in flanking unless this is really outdated: http://leerburg.com/out-pup.htm I'm assuming that comes from Bernard Flinks so pain can't be all bad?

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...so pain can't be all bad?

That's a meaningless question.

Craig,

Observe this foundation of outing.

http://kaiserhaus.com/rushob4months.wmv

Craig,

Would you do me a huge favor? I am writting a book on the various forms of dog aggression - female on female aggression, male on make aggression - that type of thing. I ask people to send me photos of dogs bites along with the details of the bite incident.

I don't have any photos YET of someone who got their finger bitten off. It would be beneficial to be able to show people what can happen when dog owners stick their fingers in their dogs' mouths to teach them to OUT or to break up a dog fight where one dog is latched onto the other dog.

I realize you may have other things on your mind when the moment of truth arrives - but just before you get in your car could you take a few close ups?

There are better way to teach the out. Read what is already written on my web site. Use the search function.

Craig, It is obvious that your intuition is telling you that the finger down the throat thing isn't the right thing to do with your dog....follow that. If you didn't doubt this type of training you would not have asked this question.

I can say without hesitation that I regret everytime I didn't follow my gut regarding my dog as it has always had a detrimental affect on the dog and our relationship....I can also say that I have no doubt that I would get bit sticking my finger down my dogs throat.

Best regards,
Debbie

Some times a little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing…… and I’m betting your trainer somewhere along the line heard someone talk about or saw a gag tool.... and since he couldn’t find one he got the bright idea of using his finger.

I’ve seen one but I have never seen it used, nor would I want to. It’s a curved piece of metal you insert into the dog’s mouth to stimulate the gag reflex. I would bet along the way, a number of dogs have been injured with this practice.