Holding the treat in your hand and "luring" the dog down to the position you want is fine; just don't give the treat until he is in the right position and is not "pushing" on your hand. Once he is where you want and is not forging, MARK, pause and give the treat. Once you have shown this a few times, you will probably notice your dog start to offer a few erratic behaviors when you say "are you ready?" and he knows you are going to train. When he "downs" (assuming you are looking for that behavior) you can mark and reward. After this - you can then start adding the "DOWN" command and tie it all together.

Is your "old man" a guy or an older dog??? LOL!

 Quote: barbara schuler

Holding the treat in your hand and "luring" the dog down to the position you want is fine; just don't give the treat until he is in the right position and is not "pushing" on your hand. Once he is where you want and is not forging, MARK, pause and give the treat. Once you have shown this a few times, you will probably notice your dog start to offer a few erratic behaviors when you say "are you ready?" and he knows you are going to train. When he "downs" (assuming you are looking for that behavior) you can mark and reward. After this - you can then start adding the "DOWN" command and tie it all together.

Is your "old man" a guy or an older dog??? LOL!

Hahaha, he's the old dog in my signature (he's 13 now and 12 in the pic). My wife and I call him old man because he'd be almost 90 if he were human.

Ah, I'm opening my hand too early. He knows down, he just doesn't like to do it outside. He's also very pushy for his reward, which I've evidently been rewarding (thank for pointing that out). Tomorrow should be fun. I'm looking forward to putting this into practice.

 Quote: scott garrett

Would holding the treat in my closed hand be considered showing it to him? For instance, if I put my hand on the ground and say "down"? Whenever I toss/drop a treat down it always bounces away from or under the dog.

Luring is fine, but you'll want to start fading that hand lure once he's responding to the verbal command. If you want to reward him while he's in a down, then just pop the treats right into his mouth instead of tossing them. Or, mark then toss, in which case it doesn't matter where the treats go because the mark signaled the end of the behaviour.

 Quote: scott garrett

Not to mention how my old man is responding to the marker training. Our bond hasn't been this close in many years.

It sounds like you're doing great with your pup! But I love hearing about your old man! I started marker training my dog when he was about 4 years old, after kind of ruining our relationship through really crappy compulsive training. I was pretty clueless when I got him as a pup and didn't know that harsh correction-based training was a great way to destroy a pup's drive and trust. (No, I'm not a "purely positive" fanatic, I believe in properly timed corrections, but not in corrections as a method of initial training).

My guy is now 8 1/2 years old, and loves training! It really is amazing how marker training can bring out their desire to learn and work as a team.

Sorry that I don't know this, but you mentioned elsewhere Scott you're thinking of doing SchH with your pup....does SchH have a food refusal exercise? B/c if so I wouldn't toss the food to him or let him eat food that's been dropped the ground.

ok, so after reading this thread, im still on the fence about the "yes" being the release for marker training.

So what happens when you want to extend the time the dog does the wanted behaviour? Like the "look" command.

are you waiting to extend the time the exercise is held until you give a command?

so it would be

Command: look
wait desired time, say 10 seconds.
mark: yes
Pause
Treat

In my mind if you want the dog to do the command longer you can't "yes" as soon as the dog does the desired behaviour because then he'll think he's done.

or am i totally overthinking!!

(come on tax refund so i can order my marker training dvd!!!)

 Quote: tabatha farnel

Luring is fine, but you'll want to start fading that hand lure once he's responding to the verbal command. If you want to reward him while he's in a down, then just pop the treats right into his mouth instead of tossing them. Or, mark then toss, in which case it doesn't matter where the treats go because the mark signaled the end of the behaviour.

It sounds like you're doing great with your pup! But I love hearing about your old man! I started marker training my dog when he was about 4 years old, after kind of ruining our relationship through really crappy compulsive training. I was pretty clueless when I got him as a pup and didn't know that harsh correction-based training was a great way to destroy a pup's drive and trust. (No, I'm not a "purely positive" fanatic, I believe in properly timed corrections, but not in corrections as a method of initial training).

My guy is now 8 1/2 years old, and loves training! It really is amazing how marker training can bring out their desire to learn and work as a team.

Ah, that makes sense. Thank you.

And thank you for the kind words. I did the exact same thing with my dog. Doing Ed's 1-10 scale, he's probably a 4 for temperament. So I was way over-correcting him with a choke chain to make him listen, because he's also a pretty high dog. I've been letting him win tug games and his drive is starting to come back out again. I don't know how much time we have left together, but I'm bound and determined to make it enjoyable for both of us!

 Quote: jennifer mullen

Sorry that I don't know this, but you mentioned elsewhere Scott you're thinking of doing SchH with your pup....does SchH have a food refusal exercise? B/c if so I wouldn't toss the food to him or let him eat food that's been dropped the ground.

I thought about that, but Ed still does it with his dogs on the videos I've seen. CJ and a pup in the kitchen who's name I forgot...it may have been Nick.

 Quote: wendy lefebvre

ok, so after reading this thread, im still on the fence about the "yes" being the release for marker training.

So what happens when you want to extend the time the dog does the wanted behaviour? Like the "look" command.

are you waiting to extend the time the exercise is held until you give a command?

so it would be

Command: look
wait desired time, say 10 seconds.
mark: yes
Pause
Treat

In my mind if you want the dog to do the command longer you can't "yes" as soon as the dog does the desired behaviour because then he'll think he's done.

or am i totally overthinking!!

(come on tax refund so i can order my marker training dvd!!!)

That's essentially what I've always done, minus the actual marker part. My old dog sit/stays and down/stays for a reasonable amount of time and under some pretty heavy distractions, like the GSD bitch next door barking her head off or me tossing a toy. With the addition of the marker training, this should take a lot less time for the dog to pick up and be a lot more fun for everyone involved.

Brilliant! I tried the new and improved marker method with Duke this morning and he got "down" in the driveway, um, down after the first time. All I used for a reward was praise, because it works well for him. The second time he was down before I even gave the command, so I waited for him to sit back up so I could give him the command. I also had an experience that proved the legs tucking over a hurdle analogy. I told Duke to "sit" and right as I marked it he turned into a circus clown, throwing his front feet and rolling over backwards. The next time I said "sit" he threw his paws up, but I waited until he calmed down to mark and he picked it right back up.

All I can say is...wow. I'm sold.

When I want to add time to a behavior I start with a short duration, say 2 seconds and then once they have the command or hand signal down I start adding duration in varying but gradually longer amounts.

so I click after 3 seconds, then 5, then 7 then back to 3 the first session where I am adding time.
then starting at 7 the next session and going to 12 then down to 8 and back up to 12 again.

But keep in mind Yote has the attention span of a gnat, even at 13 months, so I work in tiny increments with him. By gradually increasing but still varying the time span it keeps him from anticipating so much.


We are now at 90-120 seconds of sitting on the front porch before we go on a walk, and that is his happiest most excited time.

He still vibrates some but that is fine as long as his butt stays on the porch.

I also try to watch closely and if I see that he can't hold it any longer and is about to break the down or sit I go ahead and mark before he does, it saves me having to correct him and keeps him successful. (as long as it has been for some period of time, he has to hold it for more than half a second!!)

A word to the wise: Be very careful of the words you pick. I started using "OK" with Hans as his release word. And still do. It was a mistake when I started, it is a mistake now.

We have gone to a lot of work to teach him to lay down and stay away from the table when we are eating. When our son was living with us he'd let Hans come over and "visit", and of course Hans was interested in the food. So once our son left we started putting Hans into a down stay when we were eating.

But his release word is "OK". So my wife and I will be sitting at dinner, having a pleasant conversation over a good meal (did I ever mention that I came from a family of excellent cooks and married into a family of excellent cooks?) when one of us will reply to something the other person said with "OK". And up jumps Hans to come running over to the table.

Pick your release word very carefully.

That is exactly why I like the clicker so much, it is such a distinct sound, I talk too much as it is and it makes it easier for my dogs to know exactly what to listen for.