Her intent was orginally a house pet, but agility and other non biting sports intrest her.... I remember this dog from a while ago...

http://www.leerburg.com/ubb//ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000021

Was the orginal postings

Lonny is correct- Heidi's purpose was initially fun family pet (no children household at this point). But as I discovered her extreme interest in tennis balls, has swerved my interest toward a possiblity of agility as well.

Here are the results after a day in case someone wants to know. My dumb blonde summary: (for whatever it's worth after a day!) Heidi wants to play and it seems she knows what to do in order to get there.

Leash biting:

Yesterday morning: I worked Heidi for about 5 minutes around the block, on the prong, but NO corrections. She started chewing the lead her first sit stay. I put her back in heel-which was pretty tough with no corrections-so I used a hot dog. I remembered pretty quickly why I recently had been trying to use treats minimally. (only for come and keeping her attention and calm during ob class). She gets real pushy about the food. Put her in sit stay again. She jumped back up at me and started in on the biting- on me this time- not the lead. We ended things there.

Yesteday lunch: During ball play- no collar no leash, I tried sit, stay, come front, sit, and finish all in series with the ball in my hand- NO hot dogs. She did beautifully! Sloppy of course, but really good. After the finsh, immediately resumed play.

Last night: At our daily ball playing spot (local airport) we worked on prong and lead, no corrections. Heidi was average the first go-round on the same series above. So I grabbed a ball, again she did excellent- did the same series above 3x. That was about 10 mins and figured that was all I could ask for. No leash biting, no me biting, no layed back ears and no laying down & rolling over.

Ouch correction and leash biting issue seems solved for the moment- or am I getting ahead of myself again? I'm going to keep with the advise of all of you of no corrections during work. Common sense is telling me no food here either- only the ball as reward. The hour long ob class is no longer either! That is just too long for my high energy ball crazy dog to work without a ball reward. At what point or under what circumstances do I or will I need to use corrections on Heidi?

House calm issue: (sorry, i know should be in another post, but thought it might pertain to Heidi's character on the above ob correction issue)

I've left her off the collar and leash since first posting. She's doing okay with the theiving and cat chasing- though the biting on me has increased substantially. I'm back to bruised/scratched forearms, hands and legs.

I had stated earlier that I had ceased using the kennel because she bacame destructive while in it. The kennel was in our living room, with us, only 6 ft away. I would ignore Heidi during her tantrum and give lots of ooie gooie "good girl's" when she was thru and then release her from the kennel. My fiance would just yell "Heidi, that's enough!" My issue with going back to the use of the Kennel now, and an additional reason I quit using it- is the huge chase and somtimes the barking and growling that starts when she knows she's going there. My fiance would chase her- I would not- knowing full well that's what Heidi wanted us to do. At any rate, it became impossible to get her there without a lead to keep calm without a jump/nip/chase game. It just physically was easier for me to get her to lay down vs wrestling her to the kennel, where she'd just become even more irritated and worked up. Don't get me wrong-Heidi has came a long way since late December on this house calm issue. But when Heidi is wound, she's wound tight and all the obedience (I think) she's learned goes right out the window without a collar and leash on. Example yesterday afternoon: I'm dong dishes, she grabs the remote control, I tell her "drop it", no go, so I take the remote with a "give" and a "good girl", "thank you". (Here's where it gets special.) I'll turn around to resume the dishes and she'll pinch me on the butt. I'll tell her "no bite". She'll jump back, then start lunging/nipping back and forth at my arms, hands, legs whatever-staying just out of reach. Now when she gets ahold of my arm, it's not just her mouth around it- it's her mouth chewing on it like it's corn on cob or something. I don't know if this is biting or mouthing- whatever it's called- it hurts. I'm telling her to sit or lay down to which she is not listening. I wait till she comes close enough to me, grab/drag her by the scruff and baby gate her in her "den" portion of my kitchen. I resume dishes and totally ignore her for about 10 mins. Then it's over till the next time.

Thoughts please!

One of our house dogs (an American eskimo/american Spitz)had this issue where she would bit and jump away. We stopped it buy haveing sport water bottles (the ones with the nozzles on them) placed around the house and when she would start biting we would spray her in the face (she did not lke that at all). Needles to say she stopped her nipping and jumping quickly after that. Though I know of some people who would say to whack the dog with something she will remember. I vaguley remember a article Ed wrote about a kennel shovel but I might be wrong on that one.

Nochim1,
I crate trained both of my dogs as adults. My bitch was 5 years old when I first began crating her, my dog 2 (I got them both as adults, and as far as I could tell, they did not have any prior experience with crating). What worked very well for me, was time and a boatload of patience. No compulsion whatsoever, only positive reinforcement for going in the crate. I would start out tossing a bit of food into the very back, praising the dog for going in to get it (at first, they would keep their back legs firmly planted OUTSIDE the crate, stretching their neck as far as possible, eating the food as quickly as possible, then right back out.). I did ONLY this for the first day or two, not expecting anything more from them. Once that became old hat, the next step was to get their back end inside, which required a small amount of compulsion (OK, so I used just a tiny bit of compulsion)in the form of a quick nudge with my knee. As soon as they were all the way in, I would hand feed the food, with praise, then let them right back out. Again, this for a day or two, until old hat. Next step, all the way in, close the gate, THEN food/praise, feeding the food through the bars. Once they got to the point of going all the way in with gate closed, it was merely a matter of extending the delay before letting them back out. I would treat when first in, delay a few moments, treat again, then out. Gradually extend that delay. The dog knows that they get goodies for going in, and they get goodies WHILE in, and right before out. They occasionally mouth the bars, whine, or scratch, when someone is home and they're tired of being in there (which they are NEVER rewarded for), but always willingly kennel up.

Another thing I do sometimes when leaving them kenneled while I'm away, is prepare their Kongs the night before. First, plug the small hole with some cheddar or string cheese. Then, put fruit or vegetables (bananas, apples, baby carrots, canned green beans, etc.) inside, followed by yogurt or peanut butter. Then, some dry kibble. Then, finish it off with some peanut butter and a cookie sticking out. Freeze overnight. Next morning, they can't kennel up fast enough when they see those Kongs, and they're happy campers for quite some time. They don't expect the stuffed Kongs every time, but the chance that they will get one is good enough for them! If I'm short on time, I'll just put some peanut butter and a cookie or some dried lamb lung in there, and though it's not quite as good as the fully stuffed, it works.

Hope that helps!

If I go back to using the kennel for a time out vs making her drag a leash for a down stay, is she going to see a treat or a kong thrown into the kennel as a reward or reinformcement for the jumping/nipping/mouthing behavior or will she have forgotten that and see it as a reward for going into her "den" to be calm? Heidi would go directly into her kennel at the call of "bedtime", turn and lay waiting the treat. But obviously I never got the hang of getting her in there for time outs without any kind of compulsion. I never used treats for that aspect of it- just thought that would be viewed as some kind of reward or re-inforcement. What do you think? Just try it?

Thanks for all the help!

 Quote:

Originally posted by nochim1:
If I go back to using the kennel for a time out vs making her drag a leash for a down stay, is she going to see a treat or a kong thrown into the kennel as a reward or reinformcement for the jumping/nipping/mouthing behavior or will she have forgotten that and see it as a reward for going into her "den" to be calm?

She would see it as a reward for complying with your command to "kennel up". It's called "redirection", when a dog is performing an undesireable action, to give an alternate command to follow, then reward the compliance with that command. It takes the focus off of the undesireable behavior, and emphasises the rewards of complying with your wishes. This is exactly what you are doing when you put her in a downstay because she is mouthing or jumping. Instead of focusing on stopping the mouthing, you are issuing a command for her to follow. A dog cannot mouth you and be in a downstay at the same time. Of course, crating her is no subsitute for obedience training; it is, however, a way to give you an opportunity to get her out of your hair when you need to, while restricting her freedom enough to eliminate the opportunity for self-reinforcing behaviors.

That is perfectly clear! This stuff really is common sense when you explain it the way you do! Thank you so much for hanging in with me on this one. I really do appreciate it. Man, I hope I start catching on to this alot faster. May be too late for Heidi anyway. In the meantime, I'll keep reading and irritating all of you here. THANKS for the help!

One additional thing. A reinforcement rewards the behavior immediatly prior to the reinforcement. Dogs have a very short memory for somethings. The younger they are the shorter it is. This is why timing is important in corrections, and rewards. If you are too late, and another behavior has occured, that is what will be reinforced or punished.

Richard, good point! Sometimes it's easy to overlook the basics.

nochim1, you're not irritating to me. Good luck with Heidi!

It is NEVER too late for a dog to learn...put that out of your mind right now... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> And it's not to late for you either! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />